More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Discuss Canadian University Football

Moderator: Referees

User avatar
RLeb
Rookie
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:54 am
Location: Moncton

More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by RLeb » Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:43 pm

Right now, and for quite a while as most of you know, it has been Mount A, St. FX, Acadia and St. Mary's beating the snot out of each other week in and week out at the CIS level here.

But, there seems to be some interest/movement to perhaps bring more teams in soon? Listen to this..

The "Atlantic Football League" is a Junior league that started up last year. Moncton has a team called the Raiders or something like that. They are essentially just your average Junior team...

...but in Fredericton their team is known as "UNB Fredericton", and the team in Saint John is "UNB Saint John"....

...interesting.

Now, mind you, i don't know how much the university is actually involved with this, but if it is allowed to use it's school name, it must have SOME connection. Especially since it is well documented over the past several years (decades?) that people want CIS football back in Freddy-town (at UNB Fred) and the school is well aware of it. The city pumps out a disproportionnate amount of very good High School players. Fredericton is truly a football town. I don't think UNB Fredericton would allow a team to use it's school name and colors if it was not somehow related to/started by them for a purpose, especially considering the circumstances.

I know for a fact that Dalhousie University in Halifax (which is also in this league) is using it to "test" how much support/how feasable it would be to include Football in the future. Someone interviewed some of the school's higher-ups and they admitted it not too long ago.

Holland College in PEI also has a team in this league, but I don't know if they would ever make the jump, considering they are a college mostly granting 1-2 year degrees. Wouldn't really work.

Also, Universite de Moncton is conducting a feasability study to see if CIS Football could work there too (the results of the study are coming out in a few weeks apparently).

Hmmm...... certainly some interesting rumblings.... :good:
“All of life’s problems can be solved with two things—duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn’t, you need duct tape. And if it doesn’t move and it should, you need WD40.”
—Unknown

User avatar
hfxbomberfan
Superstar
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:38 pm
Favourite Team: Winnipeg Blue Bombers
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:29 pm

Let us know what the U de M results are RLeb ! :good:

I'll be there for every home game for sure if they get a team ! Tail-Gate Party ! :beer:
CFL in Moncton, 2013, TD Atlantic #4 ! ! !

User avatar
RLeb
Rookie
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:54 am
Location: Moncton

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by RLeb » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:05 am

Will do! I hope the study is positive, since I probobly paid for it with my tuition... haha
“All of life’s problems can be solved with two things—duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn’t, you need duct tape. And if it doesn’t move and it should, you need WD40.”
—Unknown

Shawa123
Playground Scrub
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 4:47 pm
Favourite Team: Montreal Alouettes

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by Shawa123 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 2:48 am

Hey if it gives the Q some more teams to beat the snot out of, i'm all for it :tease:

User avatar
RLeb
Rookie
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:54 am
Location: Moncton

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by RLeb » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:27 am

This article appeared in 'Le Front', the Université de Moncton student newspaper a few days ago, so I translated it for you guys to read.
-------------------------------------------------
Le Front
Wednesday, March 16th 2011

Something missing?
Football at U Moncton
Normand D'Entremond

When Université de Moncton and the City of Moncton agreed to build Moncton Stadium for the 2010 World Junior Track and Field Championships, they knew they had to answer some questions related to the future of the site. One such question is this: Does Université de Moncton want (or can) field a university football team?

Since the Track and Field events, the question has been more common; many people wonder what will happen to the Stadium, which has not been used since the university soccer season ended last October. It is now a hotly debated issue - so hot, in fact, that the university has decided to study the possibility of a team.

So now, two people - Linda Schofield, U Moncton's University Relations Director and Marc Boudreau, U Moncton's Sports Director - wrote a preliminary report on the feasability of setting up a university football team. Sadly, Le Front was not able to obtain the report, as it is not public.

'Since the Stadium is of such high quality and the apetite for football in the region is so high, we felt it was only right to do the study' says Schofield.

Schofield and Boudreau then proceeded to meet several key people related to the subject: Moncton area residents, people from the AUS and CIS, and also people directly related to football (such as those involved with the CFL game). They also visited both Laval and Ottawa to observe their football programs. They concluded that, if all the conditions needed for football at U Moncton were met, then it would be a great benefit for the school.

But there is a major 'if'. A football team does not appear on it's own. They need players (obviously) to fill the team, roughly 90 of them in fact. This is one of the biggest hurdles the university might face.

'The major issue we would have would be the recuiting of players' , highlights Schofield. ' Of the nearly 20 high schools in New Brunswick with a football program, there are only two francophone schools - École Odyssee [in Moncton, population 1050] and École Mathieu-Martin [in Dieppe, population 975, their cross-town rivals]. This means that we would need to recruit in Quebec, and would have serious competition from the local schools with programs already set up.'

A football team includes both primary training and coaching training. Both are essential for a program. According to CIS rules, there are many situations which the school cannot give out scholarships, and would be difficult to attract a Quebec-born player with several other local options at half the cost of tuition'.

This now brings us to the other major obstacle: funding. A university football team needs between 500,000 and 800,000 dollars to start up. Also, no matter what the decision, Schofield maintains that the current budgets for sports teams at Université de Moncton would not be reduced to accomodate a football program. Therefore, the money would have to come from an outside source.

'If we create a football program, it will not be to the detriment of the other programs. It was a condition even before the study was undertaken. We know funding would be a challenge, but we cannot begin before we know we would have sufficient players to create the team.'

Thus, the search for sponsors can only begin once the pool of interested players is guaranteed. If not, according to Schofield, the program could not properly succeed. 'Looking at the major investment needed, we cannot permit a football team to start without it being a success. If our team is not at a reasonable calibre, we will not pull any crowds, which means we would not have the necessary funding to improve the team. This would become a vicious cycle that we must avoid.'

A third point was raised by the captain of the soccer team, Charles Tousignant. According to him, the CFL game that was held last september completely destroyed the field surface. 'At the beginning of the year, it was the most beautiful field I had ever played on; but after the CFL game, it was one of the worst. If there was a university team that played several times a year on this field, it is certain that it will be very damaging. I feel it could ruin the investment from the city and university.'

These, then, are the three major hurdles that the school must now face. Also, a new variable could join the mix, that of a potential CFL team in Moncton. Up until now, there is nothing concrete on the subject. However, CFL Commisionner Mark Cohon announced that Moncton would host a second 'Touchdown Atlantic' on September 25th between the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Calgary Stampeders. The fact that the league is returning to Moncton is a testament that the city is interested in the idea of a team here.

The university cannot wait for the CFL in order to make it's own decisions. So, Linda Schofield wants to do a second, more serious study in order to get closer to a final decision. Note that the FÉÉCUM (Université de Moncton Students' Federation) has not been involved in the discussions up to now.

'At one point, the students' opinions will have to be factored in' says FÉÉCUM president Ghislain LeBlanc 'we know that, in general, sports teams promote school spirit and the visibility of the school and a feeling of belonging. But also we are talking about a football program with a massive pricetag, so we must keep the students in the mix as well.'

Schofield and Boudreau believe that, if the obstacles can be surmounted, the football program 'would be a great positive force for all sports program and the university in general'. This is what the people at U of Ottawa and U Laval told them as well. Plus, the author wants to stress that there was massive support from the City of Moncton, Université de Moncton, AUS, CIA and the residents of the city. But every idea has it's critics.

'We know that football is a great way to gather people together, but at the same time why not have the same attitude with the current teams; hockey, soccer or volleyball?' asks Tousignant. 'Instead of starting up a very costly program, we could put more effort in creating that same sentiment with the teams already here. That would be a step in the right direction.'
“All of life’s problems can be solved with two things—duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn’t, you need duct tape. And if it doesn’t move and it should, you need WD40.”
—Unknown

User avatar
hfxbomberfan
Superstar
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:38 pm
Favourite Team: Winnipeg Blue Bombers
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Sat Mar 19, 2011 10:50 am

Interesting to see that they're looking at all the options. I think if a team happens to come, we're about 5-10 years away before it becomes a reality. :good:
CFL in Moncton, 2013, TD Atlantic #4 ! ! !

User avatar
Rids
Superstar
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:11 pm
Location: Tennessee
Contact:

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by Rids » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:04 am

I'm always amazed at the arguments used against creating a football program. Especially love the comments from the captain of the soccer team.

Now there hasn't been a lot of the research done in Canada as their has been in the US about adding football programs to colleges but using the US numbers here's a couple thoughts for the discussion.

The start up costs of a program outside of Div 1 is $1.5 million dollars.

On average the schools that added football saw an increase of 400 male students per year that wouldn't otherwise be at the school, this was outside of the players on the actual team.

To translate that to the CIS where the average tuition in New Brunswick is $5,239 you're looking at $2,095,600 in additional tuition generated by the football program. Even at 300 additional students it covers the start up costs of the program. Then with scholarships being what they are in Canada you're looking at 48% of the football players receiving athletic awards at a national average of $2,615, that means that even the athletes on the football team are still paying $2,624 in tuition which pays for the scholarships at a wash. Plus the football players still need to pay for housing, food, books, and supplies.

I really don't see a negative to the school outside of the lump sum amount at the front end to get the program rolling.
http://www.JessicaRidley.com << My country singing wife

User avatar
RLeb
Rookie
Posts: 115
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:54 am
Location: Moncton

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by RLeb » Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:54 pm

You probably have a point, Rids, but remember this school has never had a football program and only knows what it has learned as they go along. The only other comparable team they have is Hockey, and they've had that team since the school opened in 1962 (and even before that, I believe, with College St-Joseph) so they have no idea what a major sports program ADDS to a university. They never actually added a program of this size before.

This is all new to them. All they seem to know is that 1) seemingly overnight they now own a football stadium, 2) Football is expensive, 3) it is a great way to promote the school, 4) football is huge and they now have a stadium to join in the party, and 5) there are relatively few francophone players able to fill the roster locally and Quebecers would be tough to attract.
“All of life’s problems can be solved with two things—duct tape and WD40. If it moves and it shouldn’t, you need duct tape. And if it doesn’t move and it should, you need WD40.”
—Unknown

User avatar
Cool
Superstar
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:32 pm
Favourite Team: Toronto Argonauts
Location: Ajax

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by Cool » Tue Apr 05, 2011 7:30 pm

They make some mention of more teams here as well...

I think this is a well done page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIS_football
102

User avatar
hfxbomberfan
Superstar
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:38 pm
Favourite Team: Winnipeg Blue Bombers
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Fri May 13, 2011 2:46 pm

Real good link Cool ! :beauty:
CFL in Moncton, 2013, TD Atlantic #4 ! ! !

User avatar
hfxbomberfan
Superstar
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:38 pm
Favourite Team: Winnipeg Blue Bombers
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Fri May 13, 2011 2:51 pm

Football season starting early this Summer in Saint John. We're going to see an exhibition game Saturday between the Saint John Wanderers and the Ottawa Invaders (coached by CFL Alumni Ken Evraire). :D :good:

This is good hard hitting football played by guys aged 18-40 who just play for the love of the sport. Quite a few CIS guys also play in this league to get themselves ready for the Fall CIS season. :helmet:

The Grey Cup is in town this week and will be symbolically presented to the winners of the exhibition game. :D
CFL in Moncton, 2013, TD Atlantic #4 ! ! !

User avatar
hfxbomberfan
Superstar
Posts: 2217
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2002 5:38 pm
Favourite Team: Winnipeg Blue Bombers
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:22 am

naeemshehzad wrote:Good luck... :pass:
Emphasize Good Luck. Either you aren't from Atlantic Canada, have no knowledge about Football here in NS and NB, or both. :?
CFL in Moncton, 2013, TD Atlantic #4 ! ! !

cflsteve
Rookie
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by cflsteve » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:18 pm

RLeb wrote:This article appeared in 'Le Front', the Université de Moncton student newspaper a few days ago, so I translated it for you guys to read.
-------------------------------------------------
Le Front
Wednesday, March 16th 2011

Something missing?
Football at U Moncton
Normand D'Entremond

When Université de Moncton and the City of Moncton agreed to build Moncton Stadium for the 2010 World Junior Track and Field Championships, they knew they had to answer some questions related to the future of the site. One such question is this: Does Université de Moncton want (or can) field a university football team?

Since the Track and Field events, the question has been more common; many people wonder what will happen to the Stadium, which has not been used since the university soccer season ended last October. It is now a hotly debated issue - so hot, in fact, that the university has decided to study the possibility of a team.

So now, two people - Linda Schofield, U Moncton's University Relations Director and Marc Boudreau, U Moncton's Sports Director - wrote a preliminary report on the feasability of setting up a university football team. Sadly, Le Front was not able to obtain the report, as it is not public.

'Since the Stadium is of such high quality and the apetite for football in the region is so high, we felt it was only right to do the study' says Schofield.

Schofield and Boudreau then proceeded to meet several key people related to the subject: Moncton area residents, people from the AUS and CIS, and also people directly related to football (such as those involved with the CFL game). They also visited both Laval and Ottawa to observe their football programs. They concluded that, if all the conditions needed for football at U Moncton were met, then it would be a great benefit for the school.

But there is a major 'if'. A football team does not appear on it's own. They need players (obviously) to fill the team, roughly 90 of them in fact. This is one of the biggest hurdles the university might face.

'The major issue we would have would be the recuiting of players' , highlights Schofield. ' Of the nearly 20 high schools in New Brunswick with a football program, there are only two francophone schools - École Odyssee [in Moncton, population 1050] and École Mathieu-Martin [in Dieppe, population 975, their cross-town rivals]. This means that we would need to recruit in Quebec, and would have serious competition from the local schools with programs already set up.'

A football team includes both primary training and coaching training. Both are essential for a program. According to CIS rules, there are many situations which the school cannot give out scholarships, and would be difficult to attract a Quebec-born player with several other local options at half the cost of tuition'.

This now brings us to the other major obstacle: funding. A university football team needs between 500,000 and 800,000 dollars to start up. Also, no matter what the decision, Schofield maintains that the current budgets for sports teams at Université de Moncton would not be reduced to accomodate a football program. Therefore, the money would have to come from an outside source.

'If we create a football program, it will not be to the detriment of the other programs. It was a condition even before the study was undertaken. We know funding would be a challenge, but we cannot begin before we know we would have sufficient players to create the team.'

Thus, the search for sponsors can only begin once the pool of interested players is guaranteed. If not, according to Schofield, the program could not properly succeed. 'Looking at the major investment needed, we cannot permit a football team to start without it being a success. If our team is not at a reasonable calibre, we will not pull any crowds, which means we would not have the necessary funding to improve the team. This would become a vicious cycle that we must avoid.'

A third point was raised by the captain of the soccer team, Charles Tousignant. According to him, the CFL game that was held last september completely destroyed the field surface. 'At the beginning of the year, it was the most beautiful field I had ever played on; but after the CFL game, it was one of the worst. If there was a university team that played several times a year on this field, it is certain that it will be very damaging. I feel it could ruin the investment from the city and university.'

These, then, are the three major hurdles that the school must now face. Also, a new variable could join the mix, that of a potential CFL team in Moncton. Up until now, there is nothing concrete on the subject. However, CFL Commisionner Mark Cohon announced that Moncton would host a second 'Touchdown Atlantic' on September 25th between the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Calgary Stampeders. The fact that the league is returning to Moncton is a testament that the city is interested in the idea of a team here.

The university cannot wait for the CFL in order to make it's own decisions. So, Linda Schofield wants to do a second, more serious study in order to get closer to a final decision. Note that the FÉÉCUM (Université de Moncton Students' Federation) has not been involved in the discussions up to now.

'At one point, the students' opinions will have to be factored in' says FÉÉCUM president Ghislain LeBlanc 'we know that, in general, sports teams promote school spirit and the visibility of the school and a feeling of belonging. But also we are talking about a football program with a massive pricetag, so we must keep the students in the mix as well.'

Schofield and Boudreau believe that, if the obstacles can be surmounted, the football program 'would be a great positive force for all sports program and the university in general'. This is what the people at U of Ottawa and U Laval told them as well. Plus, the author wants to stress that there was massive support from the City of Moncton, Université de Moncton, AUS, CIA and the residents of the city. But every idea has it's critics.

'We know that football is a great way to gather people together, but at the same time why not have the same attitude with the current teams; hockey, soccer or volleyball?' asks Tousignant. 'Instead of starting up a very costly program, we could put more effort in creating that same sentiment with the teams already here. That would be a step in the right direction.'

There seems like a lot of interest in football from the city of Moncton. If the business community some of which sponsor the TD Atlantic game in Moncton for the CFL were to start and use the Laval Corporate model it would be able to get the funding for a football program in Moncton at the University level as the CFL would seem to be a long shot, U Sherbrooke also started their program using te Laval Corporate model and Carleton is bringing back their program in 2013 using the same Laval Corporate model. It becomes like a community owned team at a much lower cost then a CFL franchise. A big plus is they have a perfect sized new facility for CIS football. Problem eing is that U moncton is a francophone school with only 2 franco phone HS in New Brunswick. Currently the CEGAP which is a level of school between HS and University unique to Quebec already has three schools drawing from it Laval, Montreal, and Sherbrooke already in the Quebec province. Laval is still tops but after 10 ears since the Montreal and Sherbrooke programs have started they are begining to get some of the better CEGAP players and they are closing the gap with Laval as Montreal has beat Laval 2 yrs in a row during the season and Sherbrooke has been able to beat Montreal. Sherbrooke also won a recent rcruiting battle 2 years ago gettin the top CEGAP Qb Jeremt Roch to come to Sherbrooke where he has been able to start hi freshman year and Sherbrooke has a majority passing attack where as Laval still plays a lot of power football which is not too attractive for topCEGAP QBs.
Then Moncton would have to lure franco players out of Quebec Cegap. Moncton has an ecellent facility which could help except than all thre frano schools in the Q also have nice football facilities. Moncton is better but not enough to really use that as a major recruiting tool.
They would somehow have to be able to give scholorships to lure players from quebecs CEGAP

cflsteve
Rookie
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by cflsteve » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:30 pm

RLeb wrote:Right now, and for quite a while as most of you know, it has been Mount A, St. FX, Acadia and St. Mary's beating the snot out of each other week in and week out at the CIS level here.

But, there seems to be some interest/movement to perhaps bring more teams in soon? Listen to this..

The "Atlantic Football League" is a Junior league that started up last year. Moncton has a team called the Raiders or something like that. They are essentially just your average Junior team...

...but in Fredericton their team is known as "UNB Fredericton", and the team in Saint John is "UNB Saint John"....

...interesting.

Now, mind you, i don't know how much the university is actually involved with this, but if it is allowed to use it's school name, it must have SOME connection. Especially since it is well documented over the past several years (decades?) that people want CIS football back in Freddy-town (at UNB Fred) and the school is well aware of it. The city pumps out a disproportionnate amount of very good High School players. Fredericton is truly a football town. I don't think UNB Fredericton would allow a team to use it's school name and colors if it was not somehow related to/started by them for a purpose, especially considering the circumstances.

I know for a fact that Dalhousie University in Halifax (which is also in this league) is using it to "test" how much support/how feasable it would be to include Football in the future. Someone interviewed some of the school's higher-ups and they admitted it not too long ago.

Holland College in PEI also has a team in this league, but I don't know if they would ever make the jump, considering they are a college mostly granting 1-2 year degrees. Wouldn't really work.

Also, Universite de Moncton is conducting a feasability study to see if CIS Football could work there too (the results of the study are coming out in a few weeks apparently).

Hmmm...... certainly some interesting rumblings.... :good:

It would seem like UNB would have the best chance to place a football program in the AUS. First off they have two teams one playing off the main Campus in fredericton and the other at the smaller SAint John campus. So already they are paying to equipt two teams and league fees. Condensing them in to one team in Fredericton would save on cost and may already have some decent players on the teams from NB which playing as a Junior program many would have quit a few years of eligibilty until they are 25. It seems to be a big football ara where the community would be involved so setting up the Laval corp model would be its best possibility same as Carleton has done in returning its football program to University level athletics. UNB formly having a team would be a huge plus as local busines community may be happy to form a Corp organiztion to privately fund the school.
There would have to be some major interest with the local community especially if they are Alumni

cflsteve
Rookie
Posts: 118
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:10 pm

Re: More teams in the Atlantic area to come?

Post by cflsteve » Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:53 pm

I kind of jumped the gun when discussing University football in the Atlantic region. In doing quite a bit corresponding with coaches, Commish, Players, and fans in the Atlantic Football League it does not appear that any of the for teams has any interested in joining the CIS in the near future and are more than content but rather estatic about being a part of the AFL.
UNBF is the main sports campus of the two UNB schools and have been having a great homecoming game among other things vs the other campus at UNBSJ. UNBSJ will in turn be facing off against their rival campus for a homecoming game of their own in 2013. Local players are flocking to these two teams whether attending the Main Campus, the local Community College or somewhere in between with a player fee of 300 dollars.
Holland Junior collage and UPEI also have a similar set up with players from both Universities using the UPEI Campus facilities but mainly sponsored by Holland.
DAL is the only University in the AFL that requires all players to be students at the University but being just minutes form SMU have had no trouble getting local players from the Largest Metro Region in Halifax who may not be up to CIS level but are nicely fit into the Atlantic Football League.
Cape Breton who had a CIS team briefly in the 90's but cost and recruiting made it nearly impossible and the Commish and others asscciated with the AFL had confirmed CBU interst in reviving their football program but a t a much lower cost using the UNB campus' model.
Distance from the Capers to the UNB schools seems to be a question of concern. However, for a league who Mission is for University/Comunity football at a reasonable rate would be very willing to make it work. Perhaps a schedule where UNB schools only play the Capers once each season instead of twice. That would mean the the Capers would only have to make one long road trip a season to one of the UNB campuses while the two UNB cmapus' rotate home one season against the capers and away the next with teams doing this on opposite years. This would give the AFL a 7 game league season with the option of their bye week to schedule a non conference opponent. Which have included over the past three years a DIII JV team from Maine as well as Acadia putting together a JV team for a game one season.
I get the sense that their is much more excitement at the current 4 AFL schools as a whole that the 4 AUS schools.
SMU will always be the darlings in the big Halifax region with Acadia who has had their couple of years on top always being second in Nova Scotia. STFX and MOUNT A have had success in the past. FX not so long ago in the AUS and MNT A a lot longer and no team from the AUS has been competative on the National level since SMU of a decade ago.
A lot of changes where made to the CIS football landscape back in the late 70's and 80's it could be that there will be some changes made again do to the cost of a football program in the AUS.
Time will teall

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest