CFL:NFL RB comparisons

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Post by Captain Canuck » Sat Apr 16, 2005 6:53 am

BiggerBalls wrote:I have yet to hear a player say I'm going to the NFL only because I couldn't cut it with the CFL.


That argument doesn't really work. It's too financially-based. If the CFL paid 10X more than the NFL, you're damned right players would try to get a CFL spot. Then if they couldn't get it, they'd "settle" for the NFL.
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Post by Alswin » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:25 am

Oh yeah, and I see AlsWin still has that fake quote in his sig. This is the plight of the NFL worshiper. They have to stoop to falsifying information to keep their fantasy alive. If you are a football fan, otoh, look at the differences in the games and how that affects the type of player that excels at each game, and you?ll learn to appreciate both games even more.


Here it is,
http://www.13thman.com/phpbb_/viewtopic ... c&start=15

You said it, if you want to deny it, fine, but don't call me a liar, and you're the one who felt the need to put my quote in your sig first, so I was just returning the favor. I respect your opinion, you definately have a vast knowledge of football, I feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia, when I read your posts, but I still feel that NFL players(as a group, obviously not every single one) have more talent and skill than CFL players. Doesn't the fact that the CFL has a non-import rule(a rule I like because it keeps the league distinctively Canadian), that keeps the league from getting the best possible players available lessens their product by forcing teams to have so many Canadian players on the team.
I will remove your quote in my sig, because it is kind of childish to keep it on this long. You can keep my quote in your sig for as long as you like, because it really doesn't bother me.

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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:05 pm

Alswin wrote:
Oh yeah, and I see AlsWin still has that fake quote in his sig. This is the plight of the NFL worshiper. They have to stoop to falsifying information to keep their fantasy alive. If you are a football fan, otoh, look at the differences in the games and how that affects the type of player that excels at each game, and you?ll learn to appreciate both games even more.


Here it is,
http://www.13thman.com/phpbb_/viewtopic ... c&start=15

You said it, if you want to deny it, fine, but don't call me a liar, and you're the one who felt the need to put my quote in your sig first, so I was just returning the favor. I respect your opinion, you definately have a vast knowledge of football, I feel like I'm reading an encyclopedia, when I read your posts, but I still feel that NFL players(as a group, obviously not every single one) have more talent and skill than CFL players. Doesn't the fact that the CFL has a non-import rule(a rule I like because it keeps the league distinctively Canadian), that keeps the league from getting the best possible players available lessens their product by forcing teams to have so many Canadian players on the team.
I will remove your quote in my sig, because it is kind of childish to keep it on this long. You can keep my quote in your sig for as long as you like, because it really doesn't bother me.


Here is the full quote:

?Football is a game of inches, and those 414 extra inches of width on a CFL field make a BIG difference, a difference guys like Allen and Avery could feast on. I think those two would turn the Pats front 7 into pylons.?
The post was about how the Pats front 7 would fair on a CFL field, but you cut off the reference to the CFL field trying to make it look like I was referring to Allen and Avery facing them on an NFL field, and that is simply dishonest. The quote of yours that I have in my sig. was such a landmark event for you that I had to quote it. Before that your worship of the NFL was so profound that you practically wouldn?t admit that any CFL player could be better than any NFL player at either game. I have asked you twice now if you feel I?ve misrepresented what you meant and you have not replied to either question, so I?ll take that as a no.
To answer your question, yes the import rule affects the talent level when you get to the backup talent but the fact that many teams start more than the minimum number of NIs means that the top NIs are every bit as good as the starting imports. All of this has been discussed in the past if you?d been paying attention.

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Post by Alswin » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:54 am

Since you've mentioned that the NFL running backs are bigger and stronger and play more of a power attack, guys like LT, Priest Holmes, Correy Dillon, just to name a few, these players are in the middle of their pro bowl careers dominating most NFL defences that have bigger and stronger players, would leave me to believe that if they can have success agaisnt the bigger and stronger NFL defences, they would have no problem whatsoever going through the smaller CFL defences, kinda like Fred Flinstone running with the smaller players hanging on his back in Bedrock.

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Post by OVDB » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:35 pm

Tomlinson is listed at 221 and Priest Holmes is an even smaller back (listed at
5-9, 213) so they are not examples of big NFL powerbacks; but you're right for
sure - they would run right through CFL defences or just carry defenders on their
backs, yes sir, just like Fred Flintstone as you've been led to believe. :roll: :cl:

Mike Sellers, OTOH, is an example of a huge back (who also has speed for such
a big guy) and he's played in both the NFL & CFL, and BTW, he did not have "no
problem whatsoever" running through CFL defences while carrying tacklers on his
back for a TD every time he carried the ball there, but maybe he did in some
cartoonish fantasy land?

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Post by Alswin » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:40 pm

Tomlinson is listed at 221 and Priest Holmes is an even smaller back (listed at
5-9, 213) so they are not examples of big NFL powerbacks


So, are you saying that since they are not the typical big powerback of the NFL, with their smaller size as you stated, they would be better suited for the CFL?

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Post by OVDB » Sun Apr 17, 2005 2:49 pm

I bet they would be great backs in the CFL too, just like they are in the NFL -
the games may differ, but these guys are very skilled RBs who would do well in
any football league; wether they are "better suited" to the CFL I don't really know,
but in the NFL, the top backs get fed the ball much more and these guys are
amongst the best there so they are obviously well suited for the NFL game; even
smaller, shiftier backs like Roberts or maybe a Dunn or Garner from the NFL
might be considered more suited to the CFL game. It's the notion that the top
NFL backs would just rip through CFL defences i find to be a laugh, but feel free to
subscribe to the NFL super-hero/hype model if you wish.

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Post by Rammer » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:10 pm

Alswin wrote:Since you've mentioned that the NFL running backs are bigger and stronger and play more of a power attack, guys like LT, Priest Holmes, Correy Dillon, just to name a few, these players are in the middle of their pro bowl careers dominating most NFL defences that have bigger and stronger players, would leave me to believe that if they can have success agaisnt the bigger and stronger NFL defences, they would have no problem whatsoever going through the smaller CFL defences, kinda like Fred Flinstone running with the smaller players hanging on his back in Bedrock.


Sellers couldn't run through the CFL with his immense size and speed. The power game isn't exactly what puts fear into CFL defenses, but Avery, KK, and Roberts sure do.

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Post by Alswin » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:10 pm

I guess you didn't catch my sarcasm OVDB, I was asking MMRF that if a small shirtier back is better suited for the CFL game because the field is bigger and the defence is smaller and faster to try and stop them, based on that, a bigger powerful NFL back who does very well agaisnt a bigger NFL defense, should do even better agaisnt a smaller CFL defence, n'est-ce pas?
And believe me, I am not trying to put down the CFL in anyway, it's just my opinion that the majority of NFL players are more talented than CFL players.

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Post by Rammer » Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:23 pm

Alswin wrote:I guess you didn't catch my sarcasm OVDB, I was asking MMRF that if a small shirtier back is better suited for the CFL game because the field is bigger and the defence is smaller and faster to try and stop them, based on that, a bigger powerful NFL back who does very well agaisnt a bigger NFL defense, should do even better agaisnt a smaller CFL defence, n'est-ce pas?
And believe me, I am not trying to put down the CFL in anyway, it's just my opinion that the majority of NFL players are more talented than CFL players.


In the skill positions the NFL would adapt better to the CFL than the other way around, but in the trenches the CFL game would kill the linemen in the NFL with our shorter time between plays. Even in the LB'ing position, the NFL would be sucking wind and doing well against the run, but not pass coverage.

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Post by cunninglinguist » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:58 pm

I would just like to add one thing to my arguments of previous. It's what I call the "last place guy in the 100 meter dash at the olympics" argument.

It basically goes like this, the bigger NFL linebackers only appear slower because of the relative speed of everyone else on the field, much like the guy who finishes last at the olympics looks slow... compared to everyone else. But he's still a world class olympic athlete, and is still bloody fast. The size of the field and the size of the players leads to an unfair view of what we see as slower.

I can agree with the fact that there are a lot of really good players in the CFL, who, skill wise, can match up with any player in a similar position in the NFL. However, they are unable to play in the NFL because they are considered too small. Hence they play in the CFL. But, changing this around to say smaller backs are more suited to the CFL is facetious reasoning. If you give me Kenton Keith, with all the skills, speed and manouverability he possesses and add 2 inches and 25 pound onto him, he wouldn't be suddenly not suited to the CFL anymore, he would actually become more dominant as his size is a plus, not a negative in his skills. Or consider Reggie Hunt (my rider tendencies aren't showing through in this discussion). Take all his skill and speed and add 2 inches and 20 pounds to him, all of a sudden if he blitzes he commands a double team, and if he gets an open crack on a slot back, the hit hurts that much more.

So I say thumbs up to the player in the CFL. It is great that we get to see a lot of world class football players up here who couldn't cut it sometimes because of their size and nothing else. A lot of these players are more skilled than many of their NFL counterparts but again, their size holds them back from playing in the NFL. Is it fair, who's to say, but in football bigger is better.

One last point I'd like to address. This crap argument that NFL Players wouldn't last up here because of the play-clock. Come on now. They are professional athletes, if the play clock was shorter in the NFL they would condition themselves differently, or they'd be cut, that simple. Ajd as one who helps CIS football player with athletic supplementation I know that O-linemen can maintain size and still gain a good cardiovascular base. Don't argue that CFL players are in better condition because that is their nature, they are better conditioned because they have to be, or they'd be sitting on the bench.
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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Sun Apr 17, 2005 8:40 pm

Alswin wrote:I guess you didn't catch my sarcasm OVDB, I was asking MMRF that if a small shirtier back is better suited for the CFL game because the field is bigger and the defence is smaller and faster to try and stop them, based on that, a bigger powerful NFL back who does very well agaisnt a bigger NFL defense, should do even better agaisnt a smaller CFL defence, n'est-ce pas?
And believe me, I am not trying to put down the CFL in anyway, it's just my opinion that the majority of NFL players are more talented than CFL players.


Per play, yes of course they would do better, but this is where the 3 downs vs. 4 downs comes into play. You haven?t forgotten about that rule difference have you? Given that 3rd down in the CFL and 4th down in the NFL are kicking downs, in the CFL you have only 2 downs to get 10 yards while in the NFL you have 3 downs. That means that on average a ball control type power running game would have to average 50% more per carry in the CFL. No one consistently runs their average of course so averages can be misleading if you read them wrong. A guy like Alstott averages just under 4 yards per carry in the NFL. He gets that by running something like 2 3 yard runs and 1 6 yard run. Now because he?s a big powerful guy let?s say that he gets an extra yard per carry in the CFL because he pushes the smaller defenders back as they bring him down. Then on the first two runs in the CFL he?d get 4 instead of 3 yards. On the last run he?ll get 7 yards. In the NFL he?d have picked up 12 yards total and have a first down. In the CFL his total yardage would add up to 15 instead of 12, but first two runs would have netted him 8 yards, so it would be 3rd down and his team would have to punt. The 3rd run would have to come on the next series. This is a very crude example but if you think about the principle you?ll get the point.

For practical examples look at guys like Sedrick Shaw, Jay Graham, and even Lawrence Phillips. None of these guys are pure power runners but they are all more to the power end of the spectrum and less to the quick and fast end than most CFL backs, although Phillips isn?t much off. Shaw and Graham were first day NFL picks. Shaw was a solid CFL player, but he was no where near the threat that KK is and he eventually lost his job to him. Shaw was a guy who was drafted #61 overall in the NFL and he lost his job to a guy who was never drafted in the NFL but is very much a CFL style back. Jay Graham I don?t think lasted a full season with Montreal. Phillips was an elite player in terms of his physical abilites. He was drafted #6 overall in the NFL. He was in the CFL because of his attitude, not his football abilities. He was successful here, but he didn?t run all over people by any means. A healthy John Avery during that streak with the Esks was far more dangerous and productive, for one comparison.

I realize that I?m probably wasting my breath as this has all been said before, but at least we?ve got you admitting that not all NFL players walk on water, so maybe there is hope for some of this to sink in. :wink:
Last edited by MightyMightyRiderFan on Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Sun Apr 17, 2005 9:10 pm

It basically goes like this, the bigger NFL linebackers only appear slower because of the relative speed of everyone else on the field, much like the guy who finishes last at the olympics looks slow... compared to everyone else. But he's still a world class olympic athlete, and is still bloody fast. The size of the field and the size of the players leads to an unfair view of what we see as slower.

I agree that the size of the field affect how the speed of players looks, but I think it?s the other way around. Players look faster on a smaller field. Actual speeds are fairly easy to compare these days because of all the draft numbers out there on the net. There are NFL combine numbers and Pro Day numbers and if you look hard enough you can find SS numbers to so it?s quite easy to prove with hard evidence that CFL players tend to be faster.

I can agree with the fact that there are a lot of really good players in the CFL, who, skill wise, can match up with any player in a similar position in the NFL. However, they are unable to play in the NFL because they are considered too small. Hence they play in the CFL. But, changing this around to say smaller backs are more suited to the CFL is facetious reasoning.

That?s not a reason I?ve seen anybody state. Backs are better for the CFL game because they are quicker and faster and generally better open field runners who can take advantage of the greater amount of open field in the CFL game. It just so happens (by laws of physics) that these super fast and quick players tend to be smaller and coincidentally that makes then deficient in terms of the power needed to play the NFL game.

If you give me Kenton Keith, with all the skills, speed and manouverability he possesses and add 2 inches and 25 pound onto him, he wouldn't be suddenly not suited to the CFL anymore, he would actually become more dominant as his size is a plus, not a negative in his skills. Or consider Reggie Hunt (my rider tendencies aren't showing through in this discussion). Take all his skill and speed and add 2 inches and 20 pounds to him, all of a sudden if he blitzes he commands a double team, and if he gets an open crack on a slot back, the hit hurts that much more.

You?re missing the point. Yes, if KK was 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier and just as quick and fast he would be even better at the CFL game, but there isn?t a single back in the NFL who is that size who has KK?s speed and quickness. I?m not sure there is a single back in the NFL with KK?s speed and quickness period, no matter what the size, but KK is too small and fragile for the NFL game IMO.

So I say thumbs up to the player in the CFL. It is great that we get to see a lot of world class football players up here who couldn't cut it sometimes because of their size and nothing else. A lot of these players are more skilled than many of their NFL counterparts but again, their size holds them back from playing in the NFL. Is it fair, who's to say, but in football bigger is better.

Incorrect again. As a Rider fan you will know that Nate?s size is a problem and there was talk of putting a weight clause in his contract. In the NFL Clarett recently got too big and it hurt his speed and hurt his chances of getting drafted. There are many, many situations where bigger is not better, mostly because size affects speed and agility. There is a cost to size and that cost is often worth more than what is gained by the size.

One last point I'd like to address. This crap argument that NFL Players wouldn't last up here because of the play-clock. Come on now. They are professional athletes, if the play clock was shorter in the NFL they would condition themselves differently, or they'd be cut, that simple. Ajd as one who helps CIS football player with athletic supplementation I know that O-linemen can maintain size and still gain a good cardiovascular base. Don't argue that CFL players are in better condition because that is their nature, they are better conditioned because they have to be, or they'd be sitting on the bench.

It?s not strictly a matter of conditioning. It?s a matter of the work involved in carrying that mass around and only having so long to recuperate. (And note that it?s not just the 20 second clock that makes the difference. It?s the clock and the fact that we have scrambling QBs in the CFL who have to be chased, and that also makes the length of a play significantly longer in the CFL which compounds the situation even more.) Nate has had problems wearing down at the end of games because of his size, and it has been very hard for him to lose weight, so it?s not as easy as you seem to be suggesting. Further, if those NFL players were to ?get into CFL shape? it may mean losing 20 to 40 lbs, and that would make them a different player. Many of those guys are effective because their game is stuffing the middle to stop the power running plays. In the CFL most of the plays would go around them. The need to defend against different kinds of players in the CFL. Being a huge, powerful, plug the middle kind of guy is much less useful in the CFL. You have to be able to move laterally well as the DL is often more spaced out, and you have to be able to run a bit to be able to track down our scrambling QBs. Our QBs don?t stay in the pocket like most NFL QBs do. So as well as the main differences there are lots of little ones too. In the ?game of inches? the little details can be very important too.

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Post by cunninglinguist » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:51 am

As always MMRF I await your responses as your arguments are always well thought out and presented in a level headed way. I think perhaps we will always be at an impasse in our discussions with respect to this topic.

I have one question regarding your previous points and it has to do with this area:

You?re missing the point. Yes, if KK was 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier and just as quick and fast he would be even better at the CFL game, but there isn?t a single back in the NFL who is that size who has KK?s speed and quickness. I?m not sure there is a single back in the NFL with KK?s speed and quickness period, no matter what the size, but KK is too small and fragile for the NFL game IMO.


I too will go to CNNSI and run some numbers on this, but I'm just wondering if this is more of an opinion on the size and speed of NFL running backs, or if there is good evidence for this. I will look in to this.

Also, I will be making a spreadsheet comparing NFL vs CFL players of similar positions with respect to size, speed, and other realtive factors for that position using NFL combine numbers and such. It will probably take me a week or so to prepare it as the work entailed will be massive, so I'll keep you posted on that one.
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Post by SectionW » Mon Apr 18, 2005 8:54 am

From past post MMRF posts are actually quite fact based, i don't have his previous posts about it, but he did provide some info towards this in the past.
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