CFL:NFL RB comparisons

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fergyrocks
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Post by fergyrocks » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:10 am

MMRF: Here's a link that you might find interesting that recently came out on riderfans:

http://archive.profootballweekly.com/co ... 012802.asp

It contains 40 times for running backs entering the 2002 draft. Interesting to note that Kenton keith ran a 4.48, and was tied as the third fastest in that years batch of prospects. Clinton Portis and William Greene both beat him by a hair (though their times were estimated?), and he was tied with Brian Westbrook. Westbrook and Portis are two smaller guys (though bigger than Keith) who have become starters in the NFL.

I think this, and the 2001 draft stats you provided go a long way in proving a point. CFL running backs are just as fast (or faster) than their NFL counterparts. They're just smaller, and probably not as strong.

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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:56 am

That?s an interesting list. I think those e?s mean estimate but that list does give a good general idea of the speeds and the size to speed relationship.

We touched on this earlier in the thread but I think KK is the exception in that I think his 40 times has improved quite a bit since then. I suspect that all the threads talking about this are gone as this would have been a few years ago now and on old boards but KK was a slacker in high school and college who didn?t work out much and only seemed to get serious about training after a year on the Riders PR and Roy telling him that if he didn?t train he wouldn?t have a career in the CFL (it might even have been a year and a half PR even). There was a well discussed incident where Danny wanted to cut him from the PR and Roy talked him out of it. KK is a cousin to both Roger Craig and Johnny Rodgers so he?s got one of the best pedigrees you?ll ever find, and apparently his raw talent was recognised in high school but there were some rumours about being a fringe gang member that killed some scholarships to top schools and he was seen as a slacker who didn?t really work out and just got by on his natural ability. I think that it was only after the Riders almost cut him that he contemplated the options of life as a burger flipper vs. life as a pro-football player and he decided to change his attitude, and the rest, as they say, is history.

The Riders have said that he?s run in the 4.3s for them and when you see him play on the field he seems every bit as fast as that. I love Holmes and his 6.5 yard average last year showed what he is capable of, but I think KK is both faster and quicker than Holmes.

Here?s the link to the quote about his cousins.
click here

Keith also used to get hurt quite a bit before he got serious about working out. He was injured a couple of times in his time on our PR and he was injured in college too. He had an injury at the end of his senior year too which may have had an impact on that 40 time as well.

?Kenton Keith was limited in his final game as an Aggie after reaggravating a shoulder injury he suffered in the first game of the season. ? We were very competitive. Kenton Keith got hurt in the first game of the year. He played through it, but I don't think he was at top speed. K.C. got hurt and that was a tough loss. D'Wayne Taylor led the team in tackles and played injured most of the year."
click here
(There is more about D?Wayne Taylor on this page too, for anyone who?s interested).

SectionW: Thanks and I'll do that.

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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:03 am

Here?s a list of the 98 backs with their sizes and speeds. Note that Avery is the second fastest back and only behind a chronically injured little speedster who I don?t think ever played pro football.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/footba ... on/RB.html

I remember seeing numbers on Antonio Warren that put him in the low 4.4 range too but I can?t seem to find them now. Do any of you BC guys have a source for him? I?ve posted some numbers here recently that list Charles Rogers in the mid 4.4 range too. I?ll see if I can find them again.

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Post by MightyMightyRiderFan » Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:06 am

Where?d ya go Cunninglinguist? :wink: Anyway, so you have seen, I presume, that we don?t need to agree to disagree anymore. The facts are on the table and they show very clearly that CFL RBs do tend to be faster, quicker, but smaller than NFL RBs. This should be no surprise to anyone but the NFL marketing machine has the power to put stars in a lot of people?s eyes. You aren?t the first and unfortunately you won?t be the last.

As a post script, I think the page giving Charles Roberts numbers is gone. It listed him at 4.44 or 4.46 IIRC. I have said in the past that he doesn?t seem to play that fast but that may be an optical illusion. The speed of the players around him will be faster than an NFL game and as we?ve seen, even with that speed he may only be average in terms of CFL RBs. Even ?slow? CFL RBs (slow but still very good backs for their own reasons, I should add) like Josh Ranek, who is listed at 4.53, are faster than the average NFL back. So I suspect that he just looks slow because the speed of everyone else around him and the other backs in the league is so under appreciated.
http://apssfootball.tripod.com/apss/id24.html
(Note that Ranek is slower and bigger than many other CFL RBs. This means he doesn?t have the break away speed but when he?s playing against defences that are using 200 lbs OLBs in an attempt to stop the supper fast and quick backs, he can use his size and power to his advantage. He and of course Troy Davis are two of the best backs in the league but they are both one dimension away from being the idea CFL back, the top end speed. Davis is, of course, one of the best backs ever to play NCAA football. He?s a two time Heisman finalist, as a sophomore and a junior (as a junior he was runner up by a slim margin) and was the first player to put up back to back 2,000 yard seasons, and when you think about the Paytons, and the Sanders and the Allens that came before him that?s pretty darn impressive. What he lacks in top end speed he makes up for in spades with smarts, heart and determination. For my purposes, however, his lack of a top gear makes him not the best person for comparison and any numbers at all on him are hard to find because of his age.)

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Post by cunninglinguist » Fri Apr 22, 2005 12:01 pm

I've been reading, but have been busy :beauty:
As LL Cool J once said "Don't call it a comeback, I've been here for years"

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Post by SectionW » Sat Apr 23, 2005 11:30 am

I put it in the thread archive so it can be used as reference later, avoiding MMRF and to keep retyping the same stats :)
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Post by BiggerBalls » Tue May 03, 2005 1:16 pm

MightyMightyRiderFan wrote:
and if CFL player were capable they'd be in the arena league.

I?m not even sure what point you?re trying to make here. I guess you believe that if NFL players were capable they?d be in the arena league too? That?s the only consistent conclusion from your statement.

I have no idea what point you were attempting to make talking about premier soccer or auto racing either.
Arguably the best CFL athlete to ever strap on the pads was Warren Moon. He ended up being a very good NFL QB as well. Examples of that kind of successful migration is rare.

You clearly don?t know what you?re talking about and you?re rapidly getting yourself into big trouble. There were somewhere around 40 ex-CFLers in the NFL last year including 5 who have been to the Pro Bowl and many more who are NFL starters, but this isn?t even the point. The main point, as I laid out in some detail in my posts in this thread, is that the two games are significantly different and different kinds of players tend to excel at each game.

Wow, a whole 40 ex-CFL players have made it to the NFL. How may as regulars or starters? Are you counting the likes of CFL MVP Ricky Ray who, if he's lucky gets to hold the clipboard. What about the hundreds and hundreds who haven't. I agree a handfull of CFLer's have done well in the NFL, good on them, but none to my knowledge have received the accolades, stats or demonstrated the consistency in NFL to begin to compare with Moon's nine time pro-bowl achievements so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I've been a fan of the CFL since the 60's so to say I don't know what I'm talking about is a pantload Einstein.
By the way, who made you the world authority?
2ndly, as far as the two leagues being significantly different as to not merit comparison. Are the differences in european hockey or the AHL so different that they can't be compared to the NHL? Different ice size, a few different rules but the game is essentially the same. The main difference is in talent levels. The best players play in the NHL. The best soccer players play in the premier league. The best golfers play in the PGA. The best baseball is played in MLB. The highest calibre basketball is played in the NBA, and the best football players play in the NFL. Yes I know there are differences, but not so many that comparisons become irrelevent. Does that mean good hockey, baseball soccer and football is not being played in other leagues or at other levels. No. Simply, the best players play in the acknowledged highest calibre league.
Why are some, not all, fans of the Canadian game so insecure about acknowledging that the NFL may have superior talent that they dig up all kinds of frankly weak agruments to rufute the obvious. You simply lose credability when you spout this crap. Bias? I think blindness might be more appropriate in your case. Don't ask take my word for. Ask any CFL coach, GM or player. I showed you your blog to an ex-CFL friend of mine and he just laughed at your comments.


Many CFL all-stars (Kenton Keith, Ricky Ray, Matt Dominguez, Randy Chevrier, John Avery, Henry Burris, Demetrious Maxie, Troy Davis and on and on) have tried to make it in the NFL with little or no success.

I?ll overlook the fact that you don?t seem to know who is and who isn?t an all-star and bring this back to main point.

My point wasn't who was or wasn't an all-star but rather reflect names of of highly regarded or even star players at the CFL level who have tried and failed to impress south of the border.

The two games are different. Unless you address this point you are simply showing your ignorance of the game of football. If you want anyone to take you seriously on this issue you need to first address the game of football and the differences between the CFL game and the NFL game. Fantasies and hero worship might be fun, but this is a discussion about the fact, not the fantasies.

Take me seriously? Who outside of a few on this board who are equally delusional would take you seriously!

Even star graduates from CIAU (Jesse Lumsden) first choice is to try the NFL.

See bolded portion above.

You are right many former or marginal NFLers have also failed to make the transition to the CFL, but their success rate is about a thousand % better than the reverse.

You are factually flat out wrong yet again, and you conveniently don?t mention the players who have been cut by CFL teams who have gone on to do very well in the NFL.

Factually wrong? Possibly a few, a very few cut CFLer?s have gone and secured positions with the NFL. I can not think of any CFL cuts who have later gone to the NFL do especially well, certainly none have become stars. I?m not saying there haven?t been any but none come immediately to mind. Now, contrast that with how may many players cut by the NFL or never drafted by the NFL have gone onto successful, or even star CFL careers. Hundreds, dare I say thousands. Notice a pattern wiseguy? If the brand of ball were equal or superior to the game played south of the border then don?t we see hundreds of American kids determined to play in the CIS rather than the NCAA? To simply attribute the difference to a slightly wider and longer field and a few rule differences is ridiculous to any impartial observer. If the game were so completely different, import players would not come north to play. The basics of both the NFL and Canadian game are the same. Speed, strength, passing, blocking, catching and execution. Defence, offence and special teams.

That said, if you want to believe our leagues players are as good, more power to you.

Again you?ve got it backwards. We are the ones dealing in fact. We are the ones presenting real evidence.

What evidence or facts have you presented? None to dissuade anyone who is knowledgeable never mind rational. Possibly a few, a very few cut CFLer?s have gone and secured positions with the NFL. I can not think of any CFL cuts who have later gone to the NFL and become stars. I?m not saying there haven?t been any but none come immediately to mind. Now, contrast that with how may many players cut by the NFL or never drafted by the NFL have gone onto successful, or star CFL careers. Hundreds, dare I say thousands. If the brand of ball were equal or superior to the game played south of the border then don?t we see hundreds of American kids determined to play in the CIS rather than the NCAA? To simply attribute the difference to a slightly wider and longer field and a few rule differences is ridiculous to any impartial observer. If the game were so completely different, import players would not come north to play. The basics of both the NFL and Canadian game are the same. Speed, strength, passing, running, blocking, catching and execution. Defence, offence and special teams.
You are the one who is living in a fantasy world and seemingly unable to let go of your NFL worship.

Can you actually read or are just that simple? I said numerous times I am a CFL fan and prefer the CFL game to the NFL
No one said the NFL wasn?t great at marketing itself, and you clearly have swallowed the hype hook, line, and sinker. If all you want to do is fawn over the NFL then do it somewhere else, on an NFL board perhaps. If, otoh, you want to get real and actually talk about real football, then address the facts that have been presented to you in this thread by me or by OVDB or anyone else. If you?re comfortable believing your fantasies about the NFL and you don?t want to deal in facts and have to give up the fantasies, then this probably isn?t the place for you.

Are you so insecure of our CFL game that you feel obligated to defend the in the face of facts which refect otherwise. I'm sure you could write a diatribe rationalizing why a Pontiac Sunfire is as good or heck even better than a Porsche but guess what? 95% of the real world may have a different opinion
OVDB: I realise that there are lots of these wannabes around. Maybe rather than having to go through this each time we should archive a thread that we can link to every time someone comes here and spouts this same fairytale stuff.[/
quote]
Whatever bud, keep drinking the Kool-aid. You're the one living in a fairytale. By the way, say hi to Cinderella for me.
Listen sport, what fact have you demonstrated as evidence to support your statement. None that I see.
I realize some may view me a heretic because I don?t spout the mindless CFL uber alles mantra. To actually say something positive about the NFL on a CFL site ... treason!
Crucify him, crucify him!
I love my wife but do I actually believe she is in fact the greatest most beautiful women in the world. Is she factually the best mother or cook? No, but I love her the way she is and wouldn?t trade her for anyone else. I have had season tickets to the CFL for thirty some years and would choose to watch the Canadian game 9 out 10 times. Do I actually believe the CFL?s talent equals that of those who play in the NFL?
Get real, nonsense.
But guess what, who cares, I still enjoy the game even if the best players in the world aren't playing on the CFL pitch.
One month until training camp.
Enjoy.

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Post by SectionW » Fri May 06, 2005 12:02 pm

And Biggerballs, as a football connaisseur by your statement you just prove your knowledge of football to be marginal, they are 2 different games requiring a different sets of skills (not for all position but pretty much all of them)
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BiggerBalls
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Post by BiggerBalls » Fri May 06, 2005 12:33 pm

SectionW wrote:And Biggerballs, as a football connaisseur by your statement you just prove your knowledge of football to be marginal, they are 2 different games requiring a different sets of skills (not for all position but pretty much all of them)

Is that the best you can do Bozo?
Can't argue facts so marginalize them .... :roll:
What a joke ....

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Post by SectionW » Fri May 06, 2005 1:13 pm

BiggerBalls wrote:
SectionW wrote:And Biggerballs, as a football connaisseur by your statement you just prove your knowledge of football to be marginal, they are 2 different games requiring a different sets of skills (not for all position but pretty much all of them)

Is that the best you can do Bozo?
Can't argue facts so marginalize them .... :roll:
What a joke ....


Bozo is it, you cannot perceive a difference between the 2 games i seriously doubt the value of your opinion.
Nice name calling, feel like a vacation from this site? i can help.
This is your first warning.
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BiggerBalls
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Post by BiggerBalls » Fri May 06, 2005 2:38 pm

Hmmm, ... let me see ....
Calling people an ass, a jackass, incompetent or an idiot is O.K. Refering to someone with a thumb up their ass is O.K. You calling someone else a bozo ... is O.K. (check some of your own posts in the archieves)
Saying my knowledge is marginal and my opinion has no value or is "narrow minded" is O.K., but YOU being called bozo gets me punted?
You may not care for or agree with my opinion but guess what, ... a forum is by definition a gathering place where every opinion is equally valid, not simply the ones with which you agree. The funny part is you and MMRF state your opinions as "fact" but really bud, they're just another point of view. Facts they ain't. :beauty:
That said, if you still feel a need to follow through on your threat and ban me, go ahead, flex your muscle, I'd say that's more a reflection of you than anything else ...

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Post by Dief » Fri May 06, 2005 3:47 pm

Disrespecting two excellent posters in one thread isn't a good move. That's all I'm going to say.
Solar Max wrote:Dief is beyond reproach...

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Ab
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Post by Ab » Fri May 06, 2005 4:09 pm

Hey BiggerBalls, I'd tone it down or you're going to be shown the door...

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Bryan Hall
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Post by Bryan Hall » Fri May 06, 2005 5:40 pm

While I may or may not agree with the points raised by BB I didn't see anything he wrote that could be perceived as dissing the other posters. In fact I feel they belittled him for stating his viewpoint. Just my opinion.
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BiggerBalls
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Post by BiggerBalls » Fri May 06, 2005 6:20 pm

Thanks Bryan.

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