Bailout

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AGENT-784
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:24 pm

If an international corporation is the "baby" in the bath water, then throwing it all out may not be entirely bad.

Would it be undesirable to have several small companies creating value within the void left behind ?

Would there be no business talent available to harness the resources of a regional financial institution, a regional accounting firm, a regional insurance provider, a regional law firm, and so on ? Wouldn't this be where value is created, one small company at a time ?

For sure, the average consumer, the average borrower, and the average investor should have been more accepting of their responsibilities. But how many could spell predation, never mind understand it ?

The corporations are not going to change their attitude, because the American people currently own a vote which is meaningless. The corporations will never voluntarily surrender the keys which allow them to create DEBT...The corporations will never give back the keys which allow private banks to confiscate value via INTEREST.

INTEREST=DEBT=SLAVERY

When was the last time a private bank created value, in the absence of a printing press ?

Go to work...Send your children to school...Follow fashion...Act normal...Walk on the pavement...Watch TV...Save for your old age...Obey the law...Repeat after me : I am free.
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Terencius1
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Re: Bailout

Post by Terencius1 » Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:39 pm

Well Gerry, It seems to me that I am not the Only "LEFT WING looney" call for increased regulation of the bank, It appears that I am joined by the likes of Merckel in Germany, Sarkozy in France, both Conservatives, and a host of others in the European Union.

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/ser ... ness/homes

But, as a new Democrat, I KNOW nothing about Macro economics. (sigh) I have only railed against de-regulation for years.
But, I was pooh-poohed, by the current public opinion only NOW begininng to change with Obama's election.

It seems to me that I was correct.

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prairiedog
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Re: Bailout

Post by prairiedog » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:04 am

Gerry wrote:
prairiedog wrote:You're all missing the point. Whether a mortgage is insured or not, high risk or not, all money issued by the bank of canada must be repaid to the bank of canada WITH INTEREST, whch is impossible if the bank of canada is the only institution permitted to issue money.

Add to that our fractional reserve system which allows banks to create 25 times more credit (or more) than the bank of canada can print, the government has no real control over the money, the BANKS do.

Add to that, no precious metal standard, all money is backed by a simple promise of the ministry of finance to repay all the money to the central bank of canada, means that every time money is printed, that one single promise gets divided smaller and smaller and smaller, causing inflation, inflation, inflation, on purpose, on purpose, on purpose.

This is why the economy at some point is mathematically inevitably doomed.

It's planned that way by the banks. Has been for decades, if not centuries. While we sit here and bicker over interest rates, industry bailouts and this mortgage, that mortgage, the bankers are grinning like cheshire cats. If this makes any sense to you at all and it bothers you. Start reading and clue in.
You've got a lot to say here, and it all sounds bogus to me, pdog. If you are so against a fractional reserve system, tell me what your alternative is. There is none. We would have no banking system, and no credit, and next to no capital for investment.

It seems to me that now that there is a major problem in our banking and capital system that a great many people almost gleefully predict it's total demise and are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The problems we currently experience are not created only by big banks and big business and government but also by the average consumer, average borrower, and average investor. It's going to take a change in attitude on the part of all of those to bring health to the system, but we still do need a system more or less in it's current form.
If we backed our currency with a hard commodity, and allowed ourselves the freedom to use anything we want for alternative currencies (creating competition of currency) - meaning that if you and I kept a safe of precious metal and issued notes backed by that metal (call them GerryBucks) and didn't mess with the supply of gerrBucks in circulation, therefore avoiding inflation and having a sound currency, people would start to use it more and more instead of the Canadian dollar bucked by nothing and in perpetual devaluement. And if other people started to do this as well we would have a healthy competition of specie of which the marketplace could choose which one or ones to use at any given time based on how strong, convenient and/or reliable each currency was. And in order to stay in good business, we'd make sure that our currency kept up in strength, reliability and convenience - in other words we'd offer the market good quality currency or risk losing business.

But if we did that, the canadian Govt would put us in jail for fraud, even though we would be the ONLY 100% honest bankers in the country. The govt works for the corps that fund their campaigns. banks are some of the biggest contributors. Govt works for the banks.

One Canadian dollar IS credit. You think its an asset, because our schools and our society raise us to think its an asset. If you know the truth, one dollar represents a share of national DEBT - debt to the bank of canada, which is NOT a govt institution, its a private one.

One GerryBuck is an hoest buck, it represents a certain value in precious metal (say gold or silver), so if terencius had a GerryBuck he could bring it to the bank of PDog & gerry and exchange it for the amount of gold stated on the GerryBuck. That amount doesn't change, beczause gerryBucks have standard. Canadian dollars don't.

That is how banking actually worked until the big banks started pulling the scam. It's gone on for centruries in every country in the world.

If you want me to propose what to do instead of our fractional reserve and unbacked currency monopoly, I humbly suggest that the honest free market banking system that we used to use (described above) would still work should we ever choose to go back to it. ;)
ping wrote:Funny thing is all argo fans should support the cats and vise-versa. There not our enemy, Montreal is!!
heh

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Re: Bailout

Post by prairiedog » Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:12 am

AGENT-784 wrote:The corporations will never voluntarily surrender the keys which allow them to create DEBT...The corporations will never give back the keys which allow private banks to confiscate value via INTEREST.

INTEREST=DEBT=SLAVERY
Listen to the agent. he knows what he's talking about.

When you take out a mortgage, you are making a deal with a bank. What is the bank's side of the deal? They write a number in your account. It's credit out of thin air. The bank risks NOTHING. What's your end? Repay this newly conjured money with real sweat and toil (which is real value) and INTEREST on top of that. Furthermore, you must risk collateral (usually the home your family lives in - MORE real value) just for the right to work your ass off for the next 20 years to repay allthis money that the bank conjured out of thin air.

I might consider taking out a mortgage if I felt that the bank was actually risking something to help me out, but they're not. They're just STEALING real wealth from the economy.

Like I said before. There is money and there is wealth. Know the difference.
ping wrote:Funny thing is all argo fans should support the cats and vise-versa. There not our enemy, Montreal is!!
heh

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Re: Bailout

Post by Gerry » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:21 am

prairiedog wrote:
AGENT-784 wrote:The corporations will never voluntarily surrender the keys which allow them to create DEBT...The corporations will never give back the keys which allow private banks to confiscate value via INTEREST.

INTEREST=DEBT=SLAVERY
Listen to the agent. he knows what he's talking about.

When you take out a mortgage, you are making a deal with a bank. What is the bank's side of the deal? They write a number in your account. It's credit out of thin air. The bank risks NOTHING. What's your end? Repay this newly conjured money with real sweat and toil (which is real value) and INTEREST on top of that. Furthermore, you must risk collateral (usually the home your family lives in - MORE real value) just for the right to work your ass off for the next 20 years to repay allthis money that the bank conjured out of thin air.

I might consider taking out a mortgage if I felt that the bank was actually risking something to help me out, but they're not. They're just STEALING real wealth from the economy.

Like I said before. There is money and there is wealth. Know the difference.
Please. Money out of thin air? Try deposits from other bank customers. For which they pay interest. It is not a number out of thin air. Where are you getting this stuff from?

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Re: Bailout

Post by Gerry » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:31 am

Terencius1 wrote:Well Gerry, It seems to me that I am not the Only "LEFT WING looney" call for increased regulation of the bank, It appears that I am joined by the likes of Merckel in Germany, Sarkozy in France, both Conservatives, and a host of others in the European Union.

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/ser ... ness/homes

But, as a new Democrat, I KNOW nothing about Macro economics. (sigh) I have only railed against de-regulation for years.
But, I was pooh-poohed, by the current public opinion only NOW begininng to change with Obama's election.

It seems to me that I was correct.
I don't know why you address me on this, Terry. I don't recall ever saying that there should be no regulation at all. It's where the line is drawn.

People in OTHER countries may be calling for greater regulation because it is needed there, and maybe it is. On the other hand, sometimes over-regulation is part of the problem. For instance, I have heard that they had regulations in the US that banks are required to lend a certain percentage of their mortgage money to visible minorities, regardless of their ability to repay the loans. That would be a problem for the bank, would it not?

As for being correct on something (by parroting the NDP line), don't get too smug. Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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Re: Bailout

Post by Gerry » Tue Feb 24, 2009 9:41 am

prairiedog wrote:
Gerry wrote:
prairiedog wrote:You're all missing the point. Whether a mortgage is insured or not, high risk or not, all money issued by the bank of canada must be repaid to the bank of canada WITH INTEREST, whch is impossible if the bank of canada is the only institution permitted to issue money.

Add to that our fractional reserve system which allows banks to create 25 times more credit (or more) than the bank of canada can print, the government has no real control over the money, the BANKS do.

Add to that, no precious metal standard, all money is backed by a simple promise of the ministry of finance to repay all the money to the central bank of canada, means that every time money is printed, that one single promise gets divided smaller and smaller and smaller, causing inflation, inflation, inflation, on purpose, on purpose, on purpose.

This is why the economy at some point is mathematically inevitably doomed.

It's planned that way by the banks. Has been for decades, if not centuries. While we sit here and bicker over interest rates, industry bailouts and this mortgage, that mortgage, the bankers are grinning like cheshire cats. If this makes any sense to you at all and it bothers you. Start reading and clue in.
You've got a lot to say here, and it all sounds bogus to me, pdog. If you are so against a fractional reserve system, tell me what your alternative is. There is none. We would have no banking system, and no credit, and next to no capital for investment.

It seems to me that now that there is a major problem in our banking and capital system that a great many people almost gleefully predict it's total demise and are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The problems we currently experience are not created only by big banks and big business and government but also by the average consumer, average borrower, and average investor. It's going to take a change in attitude on the part of all of those to bring health to the system, but we still do need a system more or less in it's current form.
If we backed our currency with a hard commodity, and allowed ourselves the freedom to use anything we want for alternative currencies (creating competition of currency) - meaning that if you and I kept a safe of precious metal and issued notes backed by that metal (call them GerryBucks) and didn't mess with the supply of gerrBucks in circulation, therefore avoiding inflation and having a sound currency, people would start to use it more and more instead of the Canadian dollar bucked by nothing and in perpetual devaluement. And if other people started to do this as well we would have a healthy competition of specie of which the marketplace could choose which one or ones to use at any given time based on how strong, convenient and/or reliable each currency was. And in order to stay in good business, we'd make sure that our currency kept up in strength, reliability and convenience - in other words we'd offer the market good quality currency or risk losing business.

But if we did that, the canadian Govt would put us in jail for fraud, even though we would be the ONLY 100% honest bankers in the country. The govt works for the corps that fund their campaigns. banks are some of the biggest contributors. Govt works for the banks.

One Canadian dollar IS credit. You think its an asset, because our schools and our society raise us to think its an asset. If you know the truth, one dollar represents a share of national DEBT - debt to the bank of canada, which is NOT a govt institution, its a private one.

One GerryBuck is an hoest buck, it represents a certain value in precious metal (say gold or silver), so if terencius had a GerryBuck he could bring it to the bank of PDog & gerry and exchange it for the amount of gold stated on the GerryBuck. That amount doesn't change, beczause gerryBucks have standard. Canadian dollars don't.

That is how banking actually worked until the big banks started pulling the scam. It's gone on for centruries in every country in the world.

If you want me to propose what to do instead of our fractional reserve and unbacked currency monopoly, I humbly suggest that the honest free market banking system that we used to use (described above) would still work should we ever choose to go back to it. ;)
And what would make a certain amount of gold or silver worth an hour hour of sweat, or a cord of wood, or a barrel of oil, or a gall bladder operation? And in which country? That seems more arbitrary to me than our current system of money management. Gold has a certain value in some industrial applications. Other than that, it simply looks good around various parts of the female anatomy.

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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:31 pm

Gerry wrote:
prairiedog wrote:
AGENT-784 wrote:The corporations will never voluntarily surrender the keys which allow them to create DEBT...The corporations will never give back the keys which allow private banks to confiscate value via INTEREST.

INTEREST=DEBT=SLAVERY
Listen to the agent. he knows what he's talking about.

When you take out a mortgage, you are making a deal with a bank. What is the bank's side of the deal? They write a number in your account. It's credit out of thin air. The bank risks NOTHING. What's your end? Repay this newly conjured money with real sweat and toil (which is real value) and INTEREST on top of that. Furthermore, you must risk collateral (usually the home your family lives in - MORE real value) just for the right to work your ass off for the next 20 years to repay allthis money that the bank conjured out of thin air.

I might consider taking out a mortgage if I felt that the bank was actually risking something to help me out, but they're not. They're just STEALING real wealth from the economy.

Like I said before. There is money and there is wealth. Know the difference.
Please. Money out of thin air? Try deposits from other bank customers. For which they pay interest. It is not a number out of thin air. Where are you getting this stuff from?
Do a google search : Money As Debt
Watch the 47 minute video made around 2007 by a Canadian.

Do a google search : Fiat Empire
Watch the 58 minute video made around 2006.

The popular deposits from other bank customers "angle" is another example of what is perpetuated by the filtered media. It is only fractionally true.
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Re: Bailout

Post by argolio » Tue Feb 24, 2009 11:30 pm

Now I'm getting the gist of this argument -- we're smack dab in the middle of a huge conspiracy. As to what's not being said (i.e. who they believe is actually to blame), I think I can tell where this is heading. Let's just see if someone dares to confirm my suspicion.
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Re: Bailout

Post by Lerriuqs » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:41 am

argolio wrote:Now I'm getting the gist of this argument -- we're smack dab in the middle of a huge conspiracy. As to what's not being said (i.e. who they believe is actually to blame), I think I can tell where this is heading. Let's just see if someone dares to confirm my suspicion.
Didn't you know? It's all a conspiracy... :?

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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:01 pm

jaxon wrote:
Lerriuqs wrote:Something that could interest everyone...The roots of this are based on misguided social policy...

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsbu ... 90330.html
Interesting read. I think the issue is more complicated than this article suggests, but I'm sure that it is a contributing factor. Lesson is simple, you can't lend money to people in amounts greater than they can repay....and the system not only allowed it, but created incentives to do so.
Yes, a fair bit more complicated...

The Pittsburgh Tribune-Review is a very conservative media outlet, owned by the Mellon Family, which also happens to be rooted in the Mellon banking empire. You can understand how they found "their" scapegoat.

Compare the numbers in the article to the numbers found, or not found, for fiscal year end 2000 :

United States Department of Defense, investigated, and the unaccounted amount reached a total of 2.3 trillion dollars.

United States Department of Housing and Urban Development, investigated, and the unaccounted amount reached 1 trillion dollars.

3.3 trillion dollars versus how much ?
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:14 am

argolio wrote:Now I'm getting the gist of this argument -- we're smack dab in the middle of a huge conspiracy. As to what's not being said (i.e. who they believe is actually to blame), I think I can tell where this is heading. Let's just see if someone dares to confirm my suspicion.
Actually, before you get to that fork in the road, why not first refute the names, the incidents, and the numbers...All of which have sources being acknowledged.

Do you remember Daniel Ellsberg ? What about Nixon, his henchmen, the CIA, the FBI, and the tactics that they resorted to, in order to discredit Ellsberg.

Do you remember that Ellsberg turned himself in, to face charges that would have had him spending over 100 years in prison. Do you even remember that while the trial was still pending, one of Nixon's henchmen offered the presiding judge a director seat with the FBI.

You might want to put the "C" card back into your pocket, at least until you have done some discrediting of your own.
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Re: Bailout

Post by argolio » Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:14 pm

Come on, say it! You know you want to.

By the way, what have you done with AGENT-783?
My name is Argolio, and I approved this post.

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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:42 am

argolio wrote:Come on, say it! You know you want to.

By the way, what have you done with AGENT-783?
She hasn't worked here for a long time...Got globalized...

I'll let her know that you asked.
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Re: Bailout

Post by prairiedog » Sun Mar 01, 2009 6:43 pm

argolio wrote:Now I'm getting the gist of this argument -- we're smack dab in the middle of a huge conspiracy. As to what's not being said (i.e. who they believe is actually to blame), I think I can tell where this is heading. Let's just see if someone dares to confirm my suspicion.
Do you think a conspiracy is not possible? White men conspired to enslave black men in Americ for centuries. Tehn even after emancipation, it was a greater conspiracy to deny them full human rights. The nazi holocaust, took root through conspiracy. How else could it? Even recent events in our own govt, remember HRDC? That was conspiracy. You cannot deny that conspiracy is not only possible it is and has been histroically prevalent in our world.

Or are you asking me to prove a conspiracy beyond any shadow of doubt? To this I say prove to me that there is NO conspiracy beyond any shadow of doubt. So far I've presented my case in far more detail than you have. All you have to counter my stance is the C word.
ping wrote:Funny thing is all argo fans should support the cats and vise-versa. There not our enemy, Montreal is!!
heh

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