Bailout

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crburrows
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Re: Bailout

Post by crburrows » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:59 am

FootbalYouBet wrote:well, I dont know what name anyone wants to put on it, but I beleive in a society where everyone works for the good of all, no super rich, and no poor, except those that refuse to contribute.
:rotf:

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Re: Bailout

Post by FootbalYouBet » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:48 pm

crburrows wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:well, I dont know what name anyone wants to put on it, but I beleive in a society where everyone works for the good of all, no super rich, and no poor, except those that refuse to contribute.
:rotf:

And a unicorn for every little girl!
not for nothing, but, I do feel sorry for you. I really do mean no offense when I say that. The feeling is genuine.
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Re: Bailout

Post by ETMRaw » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:30 pm

I suppose the alternate to the Big Bailout is to print money, like the Weimar Republic in 1920's Germany. And we all know how that turned out!
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:38 am

Has anyone questioned the relationship between the international bankers and the presidential candidates...

Fact : Congress, GWB, the Federal Reserve, the Treasury Department, and the two candidates have nicely joined forces to adopt the most wide-ranging bail out ever of Wall Street, and it's banking community...

The talk from Congress and the candidates keeps swirling around the figure of $700 billion...while in the background, the Federal Reserve and the Treasury are ready with measures, that once adopted, would bring direct relief to the financial markets, pushing the total bail out figure closer to $3 trillion...

The above figure does not include a $300 billion stimulus proposed by the Democrats, should their man get elected...

Has anyone questioned the circumstance where Democrats, Republicans, and the filtered media are all in agreement with regard to a massive undertaking to save institutions that cheated, acted fraudulently, and twisted regulations to stay ahead of the brightest in government and finance...All this, in the middle of a campaign that surely is contentious based on opposing philosophies, yet both sides conveniently chose to align themselves...

This is where the international bankers, namely the kingdoms of Goldman Sachs and the Rothschild family "perhaps" came to the party...

Without going into history, let us agree that these wealth machines, for the most part, have had their way with governments, long before many modern conceptions of government even existed...

The Rothschild endorsement arrived late, but no matter, the McCain camp could hardly say no. On the other hand, clearly the more interesting circumstance belongs to Obama and his backing from Goldman Sachs, right from the starting line...

At the 2004 Democrat's convention, a wannabe freshman senate candidate from Chicago is selected to be a keynote speaker...What up with that ??

In 2006, shortly after being elected to a junior senate seat, Obama was a featured guest at a private meeting of the Goldman Sachs executive gang in Chicago. Obama had political clout of zero importance, yet there he was, speaking to one of the planet's most powerful finance houses...Not long afterward, Goldman Sachs executives handed over about $800,000 to get the Obama bid rolling...

Robert Rubin, former Goldman Sachs CEO, became the economic mind behind the Obama machine...

Warren Buffett became a most trusted advisor, the same guy who planned to invest about $5 billion into Goldman Sachs smack in the middle of the "meltdown", yet at the same time, Buffett was a personal guest of Lord Rothschild at a private conference at the latter's English estate...

May-03-2007, Obama attends a function in NYC which was not on his public calendar, it was an exclusive private dinner for Goldman Sachs traders, and again featured Obama discussing relevant issues, with moderating provided to the firm by NBC's Tom Brokaw...More recently, Brokaw moderated the 2nd presidential debate, where talk on the economy and Wall Street were primary themes...Naturally, debate organizers and McCain were clueless that Obama and Brokaw had already held an initial dry run...

Back to the meltdown, which should be traced to two regulatory "mishaps"...

First, in 1991, Goldman Sachs, fronted by a subsidiary, argued that it was just a middle man in the business of buying commodities, they argued that it's true stake as an investment bank must be ignored, and therefore, be granted regulatory exemptions reserved for commercial traders...Sadly, the regulator-types failed to do the right thing, and exemptions were granted...Door now open for Enron, and later, the sub-prime debacle...

Second, in 2000, Congress passed a law that allowed investors to privately trade energy commodities electronically, beyond the prying eyes of regulators...This congressional Act was nicknamed the "Enron loophole", because that entity helped to create it...Now it became possible for the biggest firms on Wall Street, including, of course, Goldman Sachs, to formulate the most successful private electronic trading platform, namely InterContinental Exchange, which wasted little time in setting up shop in London, allowing it's founders to legally trade mega-quantities of American oil, minus the regulations...Say Hello to oil price speculation, but that's okay, OPEC was always there to be scapegoated...

Now that it is all hitting the fan, GWB convenes a meeting of the leaders of Congress, the Federal Reserve, the Treasury, and the two candidates. At this meeting, Obama made points which were already reportedly prepared by the Republicans for review by the Treasury...Whatchu talkin bout Willis ??!! Yes, that's right, Treasury Secretary, Henry Paulsen, former Chairman and CEO of Goldman Sachs, is also the front man of the bail out program...

Should anyone be surprised then, that as a senate member, and presidential candidate, Obama has not questioned the involvement of Goldman Sachs in both the sub-prime ordeal, and the oil price drive...

It is also worth noting that in a previous time-frame, Goldman Sachs' operatives moved funds to a Colin Powell entity known as America's Promise...Powell was also receiving funds in the range of $50,000 to $100,000 for speaking engagements, including some events under the Goldman Sachs banner. The one-time Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, did leave government, but came back into the fold as GWB's Secretary of State, but at some point, Powell did acquire at least $1 million, perhaps closer to $5 million worth of stock in mega-defense-contractor General Dynamics. The Rothschild kingdom has significant ownership in that firm. In quite an about-face, Powell went from McCain friend, and financial-backer, to Obama endorser...

It would appear that Goldman Sachs has the inside track to getting their man into the Oval Office, but the Rothschilds won't be feeling too badly...Consider that through their holdings of JP Morgan, and Barclays, the kingdom was able to rake in Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers, and Washington Mutual, in transactions which paid out a fraction of true asset value.

Source : Jordan Christopher / The Coltons Point Times
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Re: Bailout

Post by FootbalYouBet » Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:48 pm

yeah, but what are you really trying to say
Don't confuse me with facts

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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:29 am

FootbalYouBet wrote:yeah, but what are you really trying to say
Actually, your initial post in this thread said just as much...minus the colour commentary from Jordan Christopher...

"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling the money and its issuance."
-James Madison

“And remember, where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. All power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
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Re: Bailout

Post by argolio » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:42 pm

Break up all huge companies and turn them into a bunch of smaller companies. Rinse and repeat every 50-100 years.

Or just let the failing ones die.

Or do both.
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:56 pm

You know the corporations...Do you know what the numbers represent...

Citigroup $3,062,150,000
Bank of America/Citigroup $2,750,000,000
Credit Suisse $450,000,000
Merrill Lynch $418,500,000
Morgan Stanley $281,200,000
J. P. Morgan/Chase $2,290,000,000
Goldman Sachs $112,000,000
Lehman Brothers $130,000,000
Bear Stearns $130,000,000
UBS Warburg $180,000,000
US Bancorp/Piper Jaffray $32,500,000
American Express $32,350,000
MasterCard $1,000,000,000
VISA $2,000,000,000

These are a sample of the penalties paid by corporations for misbehavior, over the past eight years plus...

What were the crimes...Price fixing, fraud in stock deals, illegal charges to consumers, cheating on taxes, cheating stockholders, filing false financial statements, and cover-ups are just some of the actions charged against them...

Most of the fines were negotiated with the government and settled without trials, a pretty good sign of guilt. However, the settlements also meant the companies did not have to plead guilty, just admit to the practices and pay the fines.

The key here is that the corporations insisted that the following magic words be included in their settlement agreement -- "without admitting guilt."

By being allowed to not admit guilt, the payments could be classified for tax purposes as "compensatory" damages rather than as a "fine" for wrongdoing.

So whats the big deal...Well, under the IRS's corporate tax rules, settlements that result in a company having to pay "compensatory" damages are fully deductible as legitimate business expenses. This includes both compensatory as well as punitive "compensation."

the IRS kicks back a big hunk of the fine back to the corporations, in the form of a tax write off.

That's right, taxpayers, through the IRS, subsidize corporate wrongdoing by providing substantial tax breaks to companies that settle shareholder lawsuits or regulatory actions...

This is a longstanding practice with both the SEC and IRS. And, in spite of the cascade of corporate evildoing, the IRS rulings not only enshrines the practice, but also appears to concede that getting caught and fined for lying and cheating is now a legitimate expense of doing business.

Source : Jordan Christopher
Source : CorpWatch
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:54 pm

As expected, the G-20 Economic Summit in Washington turned out to be a total bust. None of the problems which have pushed the global economy to the brink of disaster were resolved and none of the main players who gamed the system with their toxic securities were held accountable. Instead, the visiting dignitaries gorged themselves on stuffed quail and roast rack of lamb before settling on a toothless "Statement on Financial Markets" which accomplished absolutely nothing. The one noteworthy clause in the entire document is a two paragraph indictment of the United States as the perpetrator of the financial crisis. At least they got that right.

Despite the outcry for meaningful reform, the summit only reinforces the status quo; the same old American-led financial system. In fact, there appears to be growing consensus that the IMF should spearhead the programs that provide liquidity to the developing countries that are getting pounded by the downturn. This is a major setback. It restores the IMF--which is the "iron fist" of the US Treasury-- to its former glory so it can once again use its extortionist loans to thrust faltering nations into structural adjustment, privatization and slave wages. The meetings are breathing new life into the failed neoliberal policies that should be done away with once and for all.

The G 20 statement also rejects protectionism which defends the interests of labor and crucial national industries. This just illustrates the blatant pro-Wall Street bias of the meetings where none of the leaders represented the interests of labor or unions. To hell with the working man.

Once they have consolidated their position in the banking industry, the financial giants including JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America, et al will use their windfall money gains and bailout money provided, to further extend their control over the real economy. The target of these acquisitions are the numerous highly productive industrial and services sector companies, which are on the verge of bankruptcy and/or whose stock values have collapsed. As a result of these developments, which are directly related to the financial meltdown, the entire ownership structure of real economy is in turmoil.

In a bitter twist, the new owners of industry are the institutional speculators and financial manipulators. They are becoming the new captains of industry, displacing not only the preexisting structures of ownership but also instating their cronies in the seats of corporate management.

The world doesn't need a new Breton Woods or a new world order; it needs a competing vision of global finance. One that will put an end to dollar tyranny, superpower politics and "beggar thy neighbor" economic policies. A system that strengthens national sovereignty, cooperation, and international law. That's what the G 20 should have been talking about, instead of wasting their time trying to prop up a system that's rotten to the core.

Source : Mike Whitney
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:05 pm

"Money earns for its owner by an accumulative power;by a power to gather things already produced, and not by a natural power of growth, like that contained in the germs of wheat or grain. Where this power to accumulate by interest is made greater or more rapid than the natural power of production by labor, this law of interest becomes a most powerful engine of evil. It gathers into the hands of a few capitalists the productions of labor, and often deprives the producers of the necessities of life."---Edward Kellogg.
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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:20 pm

So now that we have established that President Obama and company are not to blame for anything, but Wall Street and the past government are to blame, let us look at how the big banks on Wall Street have performed since November-2008. Only one financial institution on Wall Street has a valuation that increased since Obama became president. Only one firm out of hundreds in the financial sector. What makes Goldman Sachs different? They have the most toxic debt. They championed the oil price run up that nearly destroyed the world economy.

Here are some of the stock prices for comparison from Nov-04-2008 to Feb-10-2009 :

Bank of America...from $23.61 to $5.56...a loss of 76 percent.
JP Morgan...from $40.73 to $24.62...a loss of 40 percent.
Citibank...from $13.99 to $3.35...a loss of 76 percent.
Wells Fargo...from $33.80 to $16.35...a loss of 52 percent.
Goldman Sachs...from $89.09 to $90.40... a gain of 1 percent.

Goldman Sachs has also stated they will return the $10 billion in bailout money they received, meaning they didn't need it in the first place, or the restrictions don't appeal to the firm with the highest executive bonus program in history.

When will the American people ask the corporate filtered media to detail the special relationship owned by Goldman Sachs over the current administration. The facts will not be found on Wall Street. The facts will not be found on Madison Avenue.
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Re: Bailout

Post by argolio » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:44 pm

AGENT-784 wrote:So now that we have established that President Obama and company are not to blame for anything, but Wall Street and the past government are to blame, let us look at how the big banks on Wall Street have performed since November-2008. Only one financial institution on Wall Street has a valuation that increased since Obama became president. Only one firm out of hundreds in the financial sector. What makes Goldman Sachs different? They have the most toxic debt. They championed the oil price run up that nearly destroyed the world economy.

Here are some of the stock prices for comparison from Nov-04-2008 to Feb-10-2009 :

Bank of America...from $23.61 to $5.56...a loss of 76 percent.
JP Morgan...from $40.73 to $24.62...a loss of 40 percent.
Citibank...from $13.99 to $3.35...a loss of 76 percent.
Wells Fargo...from $33.80 to $16.35...a loss of 52 percent.
Goldman Sachs...from $89.09 to $90.40... a gain of 1 percent.

Goldman Sachs has also stated they will return the $10 billion in bailout money they received, meaning they didn't need it in the first place, or the restrictions don't appeal to the firm with the highest executive bonus program in history.

When will the American people ask the corporate filtered media to detail the special relationship owned by Goldman Sachs over the current administration. The facts will not be found on Wall Street. The facts will not be found on Madison Avenue.
In all fairness, Obama and his people didn't take power until January 20, but that's an interesting take on things.
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Re: Bailout

Post by Terencius1 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm

Gerry wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:I have always thought that capitalism = get what you can for yourself\lookout for number one\me me me I I I self self self.

If that is so, then there must be something better?
Capitalism doesn't equal that anymore than socialism equals brotherly love.

That said, there's something to be said for being "selfish". The best cared for person is one who looks after himself. It saves someone else the trouble, and we always receive relative to the effort we are willing to give.

Well Gerry,

That all depends upon the regulations that Banks and large investment firms were operating under. Ronnie Reagan amd Maggie Thatcher started this. Deregulating a number of industry's, transportation comes to mind, and loosend the regulatory rules governing the banks and the investment houses.

They are the ones "looking for a quick buck in the American subprime mortages" industry.

Clinton also has his claim to shame by not reigning in these "excesses of Capitalism". With Increased regulation.
Obama, is reigning in these "capatains if Captitalism" with increased regulation. I say it's about time Canada did to.

Now the SH&T has hit the fan, causing a world wide recession or worse. Combine that with the US fighting 2 wars. Afghanistan (where they should be) and Iraq, (where they shouldn't be) The American are talking about spending TRILLIONS of dollars to get itself out of this mess, caused by the very folks that you supported. In addition, the Harper government, has dropped "it's no deficit policy" and has gone into the Red. While in BC, soon to be Ex premier Canpbell has declared BC a "deficit zone", Again.

Capitalism works, if and only if, people have trust and confidence in the system. By recent events, peoeple are starting to lose that confidence.

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Re: Bailout

Post by Lerriuqs » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:10 am

Terencius1 wrote:
Gerry wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:I have always thought that capitalism = get what you can for yourself\lookout for number one\me me me I I I self self self.

If that is so, then there must be something better?
Capitalism doesn't equal that anymore than socialism equals brotherly love.

That said, there's something to be said for being "selfish". The best cared for person is one who looks after himself. It saves someone else the trouble, and we always receive relative to the effort we are willing to give.

Well Gerry,

That all depends upon the regulations that Banks and large investment firms were operating under. Ronnie Reagan amd Maggie Thatcher started this. Deregulating a number of industry's, transportation comes to mind, and loosend the regulatory rules governing the banks and the investment houses.

They are the ones "looking for a quick buck in the American subprime mortages" industry.

Clinton also has his claim to shame by not reigning in these "excesses of Capitalism". With Increased regulation.
Obama, is reigning in these "capatains if Captitalism" with increased regulation. I say it's about time Canada did to.

Now the SH&T has hit the fan, causing a world wide recession or worse. Combine that with the US fighting 2 wars. Afghanistan (where they should be) and Iraq, (where they shouldn't be) The American are talking about spending TRILLIONS of dollars to get itself out of this mess, caused by the very folks that you supported. In addition, the Harper government, has dropped "it's no deficit policy" and has gone into the Red. While in BC, soon to be Ex premier Canpbell has declared BC a "deficit zone", Again.

Capitalism works, if and only if, people have trust and confidence in the system. By recent events, peoeple are starting to lose that confidence.
Get your facts straight, please...Canada's financial institutions are considered the strongest in the world right now.

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Re: Bailout

Post by AGENT-784 » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:40 am

Humanity no longer has any reason to trust Capitalism, especially in light of the fact that the ruling class has resorted to Globalization as it's new cornerstone to wealth retention, poverty expansion, labour exploitation, and natural resource annihilation. How can Capitalism be trusted when the basis for it's existence is human greed, not human need. The ruling class does not create value in the absence of the working class. Why can the working class no longer retain a fair portion of the value which it creates ?

For the first time in the history of capitalism, technology has advanced to the point at which transnational corporations are able to pit workers in the rich, developed countries in a direct job-for-job wage competition with workers in poor, underdeveloped, low-wage countries on an ever-widening scale around the globe.

This cannot be considered a temporary phase that world capitalism and the working classes are passing through. It is the result of changes that are as profound as the Industrial Revolution and the age of imperialist/colonization. From 1985 to 2000 the so-called “active work force” available to world capitalism and imperialism doubled from 1.5 billion to 3 billion, an unprecedented event in the history of capitalism. Advantage...Ruling class.

This vast expansion of territory and low-wage labor newly available to the corporations coincided with the accelerated development of the scientific/technological revolution. The transnational corporations are using technology to restructure production and services so that they can scour the globe to find the cheapest labour. Under this new international division of labour, wages are being determined based upon international competition, thus pushing downward national wage standards in the rich countries.

Source : Fred Goldstein
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