Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

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Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Ron » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:10 pm

From a letter to the Governor General from the opposition:

We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority.

Dated September 9, 2004
Signed by Stephen Harper, Gilles Duceppe and Jack Layton
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:53 pm

interesting Jack Layton was part of this agreement, NDP wasnt really nessary to get a majority coalition, I dont know what he was hoping to get from it, cuz the deal with the liberals was way better, and our views are simular.

but correct me if I;m wrong, wasnt it the NDP that caused the no convidence vote in 2006 that got the tories in power as a minority goverment?
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Gerry » Thu Dec 04, 2008 4:39 pm

Harper would have done it too?

That's not what the letter says. He may have, or he may not. We'll never know, because he didn't. And if he had, what would the terms have been?

That letter has been posted a million times by coalition supporters. I don't doubt that every one of them would have been up in arms about it if Harper actually had done it, but now that their boys are doing it it's justified because Harper might have done it in the past.

We also get a lot of coalition supporters handing out the civics lessons on how Parliamentary democracy works and how we vote for an MP, not a party or a leader, and how once they're elected that the MPs choose the government. Every single one of those supporters of the coalition was probably screaming blue murder when Emerson crossed the floor to join government though. No civics lessons then.

Bottom line is that we are very polarized right now and supporters on each side would condone almost anything that their side does to "win".

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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Thu Dec 04, 2008 6:33 pm

Gerry wrote:Harper would have done it too?

That's not what the letter says. He may have, or he may not. We'll never know, because he didn't. And if he had, what would the terms have been?

That letter has been posted a million times by coalition supporters. I don't doubt that every one of them would have been up in arms about it if Harper actually had done it, but now that their boys are doing it it's justified because Harper might have done it in the past.

We also get a lot of coalition supporters handing out the civics lessons on how Parliamentary democracy works and how we vote for an MP, not a party or a leader, and how once they're elected that the MPs choose the government. Every single one of those supporters of the coalition was probably screaming blue murder when Emerson crossed the floor to join government though. No civics lessons then.

Bottom line is that we are very polarized right now and supporters on each side would condone almost anything that their side does to "win".
c'mon man, we wouldnt be up in arms, cuz unlike the tories we understand the system, and this is what happens in parliments. For god sake, the two right wing parties in Australia are in preminate coalition, and I, as an Australian, hav put up with it. Labor only last year defeated them after 11 years of rule. Thats the way parliments work, dont like it? move to a country that doesnt hav it, and see how you like that. (and I dont mean you personally Gerry, just a general bout the people that dont like the parliment system)

and i dont sream bloody murder when the system turns agaist my ideas, do you see me screaming cuz the GG didnt choces to form a goverment with the left, no you dont, in fact I think the left will now try to work with the tories, and kick out the bulldog harper, I'd think I speack for the left when I say I'd that another tory as PM rather than harper.
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:13 pm

I don't think most people doubt that any of these political parties would join forces in all kinds of interesting alignments if it suited their purposes. The reason that Mr. Harper is getting this kind of attention is that it was him and his propaganda machine that has been howling for a week about how this was undemocratic, an unholy alliance, democracy taken hostage, partnering with separatists/sovereigntists blah, blah blah. The moral for Harper was/is "If you live in a glass house...."

If anything this has probably been the worst blow to his cause overall. He has burned a lot of goodwill in Quebec over his constant hammering of the Bloc and the separatists. Even rank and file federalists in that province have commented on the "under attack" feelings he has generated. If he ever hoped for a majority in this country, I think it is pretty safe to say that he will never get one now. I also think it is going to be much harder for him to deal with Quebec on any issue in future. His survival today has come at a very high price. In one swoop he has managed to shatter any illusions about his status as some kind of master tactician and at the same time, he has given plenty of fuel to those same separatists that have him so worried. All in all, this has been a devastating week for Canadian unity.
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Gerry » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:06 pm

Kanga-Kucha wrote:
Gerry wrote:Harper would have done it too?

That's not what the letter says. He may have, or he may not. We'll never know, because he didn't. And if he had, what would the terms have been?

That letter has been posted a million times by coalition supporters. I don't doubt that every one of them would have been up in arms about it if Harper actually had done it, but now that their boys are doing it it's justified because Harper might have done it in the past.

We also get a lot of coalition supporters handing out the civics lessons on how Parliamentary democracy works and how we vote for an MP, not a party or a leader, and how once they're elected that the MPs choose the government. Every single one of those supporters of the coalition was probably screaming blue murder when Emerson crossed the floor to join government though. No civics lessons then.

Bottom line is that we are very polarized right now and supporters on each side would condone almost anything that their side does to "win".
c'mon man, we wouldnt be up in arms, cuz unlike the tories we understand the system, and this is what happens in parliments. For god sake, the two right wing parties in Australia are in preminate coalition, and I, as an Australian, hav put up with it. Labor only last year defeated them after 11 years of rule. Thats the way parliments work, dont like it? move to a country that doesnt hav it, and see how you like that. (and I dont mean you personally Gerry, just a general bout the people that dont like the parliment system)

and i dont sream bloody murder when the system turns agaist my ideas, do you see me screaming cuz the GG didnt choces to form a goverment with the left, no you dont, in fact I think the left will now try to work with the tories, and kick out the bulldog harper, I'd think I speack for the left when I say I'd that another tory as PM rather than harper.
When you say we, I think you should say "me". Perhaps you would not be upset and up in arms because you have experience with coalition parliaments.

An electorate that anticipates coalitions votes strategically, knowing the possibilities. Likely the individual parties involved acknowledge this in advance.

That is not the case here. We are used to politicians running on a platform. We judge them on it. We have debates between leaders of those parties and judge the leaders because we know that when we vote for a person with a party label beside his or her name on the ballot that we are voting for that person AND the party he or she represents AND the platform they ran on AND the leader of that party AND the track record of that party and leader and member.

Not to mention that members of the coalition told us that a coalition was not in the cards prior to events last week and yet we find out that they have been plotting that very thing for weeks, if not months.

So yeah, it's legal, and other countries are run this way. Not all of them do that well with it though. Italy, anyone? But if Canadians had to put up with the crap that almost got pulled this week and still may in January, there'd be people in the streets and they'd be pissed off.

Dion for PM? The man has run his own party into the ground. He lost more seats from a very poor base. Canadians have no confidence in him and showed that in a very recent election and now he gets to lead the country? His party was giving him the boot 2 weeks ago and now we have to have confidence in him to lead us? Give me a break. Any system that condones that sucks. That system needs to be changed.

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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:46 pm

Gerry wrote:
Kanga-Kucha wrote:
Gerry wrote:Harper would have done it too?

That's not what the letter says. He may have, or he may not. We'll never know, because he didn't. And if he had, what would the terms have been?

That letter has been posted a million times by coalition supporters. I don't doubt that every one of them would have been up in arms about it if Harper actually had done it, but now that their boys are doing it it's justified because Harper might have done it in the past.

We also get a lot of coalition supporters handing out the civics lessons on how Parliamentary democracy works and how we vote for an MP, not a party or a leader, and how once they're elected that the MPs choose the government. Every single one of those supporters of the coalition was probably screaming blue murder when Emerson crossed the floor to join government though. No civics lessons then.

Bottom line is that we are very polarized right now and supporters on each side would condone almost anything that their side does to "win".
c'mon man, we wouldnt be up in arms, cuz unlike the tories we understand the system, and this is what happens in parliments. For god sake, the two right wing parties in Australia are in preminate coalition, and I, as an Australian, hav put up with it. Labor only last year defeated them after 11 years of rule. Thats the way parliments work, dont like it? move to a country that doesnt hav it, and see how you like that. (and I dont mean you personally Gerry, just a general bout the people that dont like the parliment system)

and i dont sream bloody murder when the system turns agaist my ideas, do you see me screaming cuz the GG didnt choces to form a goverment with the left, no you dont, in fact I think the left will now try to work with the tories, and kick out the bulldog harper, I'd think I speack for the left when I say I'd that another tory as PM rather than harper.
When you say we, I think you should say "me". Perhaps you would not be upset and up in arms because you have experience with coalition parliaments.

An electorate that anticipates coalitions votes strategically, knowing the possibilities. Likely the individual parties involved acknowledge this in advance.

That is not the case here. We are used to politicians running on a platform. We judge them on it. We have debates between leaders of those parties and judge the leaders because we know that when we vote for a person with a party label beside his or her name on the ballot that we are voting for that person AND the party he or she represents AND the platform they ran on AND the leader of that party AND the track record of that party and leader and member.

Not to mention that members of the coalition told us that a coalition was not in the cards prior to events last week and yet we find out that they have been plotting that very thing for weeks, if not months.

So yeah, it's legal, and other countries are run this way. Not all of them do that well with it though. Italy, anyone? But if Canadians had to put up with the crap that almost got pulled this week and still may in January, there'd be people in the streets and they'd be pissed off.

Dion for PM? The man has run his own party into the ground. He lost more seats from a very poor base. Canadians have no confidence in him and showed that in a very recent election and now he gets to lead the country? His party was giving him the boot 2 weeks ago and now we have to have confidence in him to lead us? Give me a break. Any system that condones that sucks. That system needs to be changed.
for Dion, i wish they came up with the idea to make Layton PM, and I think he would be a great PM (but he would be a puppet) for half the 18 mouths of the coalition, and the other half lead by a Liberal PM, but maybe the Liberals will hav a new leader by January to give the coalition more legitmacy, if they havent reached and agreement with the tories by then, hence why I;m saying harper could be gone eitherway.

but no offence to you gerry and all canadians, if you couldnt see the three parties possibly forming a coalition goverment, you were blind, cuz I was cinvisioning it on here, and at the Grey Cup party long before it happened. I mean its not like they didnt do anything illegal under parliment rules, and you could see it coming. Yeah, maybe they said, we will not do it, but when it comes down to it, and Harper was acting like he had a majority this time around, the left finally put him in his place, cuz he doesnt hav a majority, and by all means, had a madate by the opposition to be PM, and he blew that when he lost their confidence.

and it's a good system, its not prefect but what system is? (electorial college in the USA?)
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Ron » Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:07 am

Here's how I see things "Blame" wise.

1. Jack Layton. Bob Rae. I have little doubt this deal was born here. Rae kinda did something like this to oust the Conservatives in Ontario (deal with Peterson) and is doing it again. Layton is the weasel he always was from his local Toronto days.

2. Harper. That man may be smart ... but he too smart. He has no "street sense" and misreads the populations mood. Calling unwanted elections claiming the Hill was broken while now claiming he can make it work?? The opposition now using his own reasons for the last election against him ... fueling separation fears to remain in power, etc. He needs to take a PR course or something. Oh ... and cutting off their money. What would the outrage be if the roles were reversed and Chretien did it to the Reform party years ago? You know ... when the Libs were the rich one's.

3. Dion. This stooge will do anything to get him name in the history books. He's nothing but a pawn yet acts like he's Captain Canada out to save the nation. No character. His blame would be higher if he had anything to do with this.

4. Iggy. I really get the sense that Iggy doesn't like what's going on but as you say ... has to go along to get along. He's the Liberal who left a door of hope open that Harper will to do the right thing in January while others were hard lining it.

5. Duceppe. I have zero blame for him. He's doing exactly what we would expect him to do. Get Quebec a bigger voice. (Not necessarily separation.)

The next 6 weeks will be interesting. I'll be watching to see how Rae and Iggy handle themselves and totally ignore Dion. Dion is the "throw the stick for the media dogs" guy and will be forefront in the news. :canada:
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by larz-7 » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:36 am

Gerry wrote:
Kanga-Kucha wrote:
Gerry wrote:Harper would have done it too?

That's not what the letter says. He may have, or he may not. We'll never know, because he didn't. And if he had, what would the terms have been?

That letter has been posted a million times by coalition supporters. I don't doubt that every one of them would have been up in arms about it if Harper actually had done it, but now that their boys are doing it it's justified because Harper might have done it in the past.

We also get a lot of coalition supporters handing out the civics lessons on how Parliamentary democracy works and how we vote for an MP, not a party or a leader, and how once they're elected that the MPs choose the government. Every single one of those supporters of the coalition was probably screaming blue murder when Emerson crossed the floor to join government though. No civics lessons then.

Bottom line is that we are very polarized right now and supporters on each side would condone almost anything that their side does to "win".
c'mon man, we wouldnt be up in arms, cuz unlike the tories we understand the system, and this is what happens in parliments. For god sake, the two right wing parties in Australia are in preminate coalition, and I, as an Australian, hav put up with it. Labor only last year defeated them after 11 years of rule. Thats the way parliments work, dont like it? move to a country that doesnt hav it, and see how you like that. (and I dont mean you personally Gerry, just a general bout the people that dont like the parliment system)

and i dont sream bloody murder when the system turns agaist my ideas, do you see me screaming cuz the GG didnt choces to form a goverment with the left, no you dont, in fact I think the left will now try to work with the tories, and kick out the bulldog harper, I'd think I speack for the left when I say I'd that another tory as PM rather than harper.
When you say we, I think you should say "me". Perhaps you would not be upset and up in arms because you have experience with coalition parliaments.

An electorate that anticipates coalitions votes strategically, knowing the possibilities. Likely the individual parties involved acknowledge this in advance.

That is not the case here. We are used to politicians running on a platform. We judge them on it. We have debates between leaders of those parties and judge the leaders because we know that when we vote for a person with a party label beside his or her name on the ballot that we are voting for that person AND the party he or she represents AND the platform they ran on AND the leader of that party AND the track record of that party and leader and member.

Not to mention that members of the coalition told us that a coalition was not in the cards prior to events last week and yet we find out that they have been plotting that very thing for weeks, if not months.

So yeah, it's legal, and other countries are run this way. Not all of them do that well with it though. Italy, anyone? But if Canadians had to put up with the crap that almost got pulled this week and still may in January, there'd be people in the streets and they'd be pissed off.

Dion for PM? The man has run his own party into the ground. He lost more seats from a very poor base. Canadians have no confidence in him and showed that in a very recent election and now he gets to lead the country? His party was giving him the boot 2 weeks ago and now we have to have confidence in him to lead us? Give me a break. Any system that condones that sucks. That system needs to be changed.
you are right we were told that the coalition was not in the cards
we were also told our country was finacially stable or in good shape during the election
Dion for PM and the party now supporting that . I think it is more they have thrown him to the wolves ,if it works great ,if it does not he is gone anyway.
Dion will be gone sooner then later but it may also be time for Harper to go as well it might be just me but he seems to spend more time throwing rocks then running the country. time to clean house
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Lerriuqs » Fri Dec 05, 2008 6:51 am

Ron wrote:Here's how I see things "Blame" wise.

1. Jack Layton. Bob Rae. I have little doubt this deal was born here. Rae kinda did something like this to oust the Conservatives in Ontario (deal with Peterson) and is doing it again. Layton is the weasel he always was from his local Toronto days.

2. Harper. That man may be smart ... but he too smart. He has no "street sense" and misreads the populations mood. Calling unwanted elections claiming the Hill was broken while now claiming he can make it work?? The opposition now using his own reasons for the last election against him ... fueling separation fears to remain in power, etc. He needs to take a PR course or something. Oh ... and cutting off their money. What would the outrage be if the roles were reversed and Chretien did it to the Reform party years ago? You know ... when the Libs were the rich one's.

3. Dion. This stooge will do anything to get him name in the history books. He's nothing but a pawn yet acts like he's Captain Canada out to save the nation. No character. His blame would be higher if he had anything to do with this.

4. Iggy. I really get the sense that Iggy doesn't like what's going on but as you say ... has to go along to get along. He's the Liberal who left a door of hope open that Harper will to do the right thing in January while others were hard lining it.

5. Duceppe. I have zero blame for him. He's doing exactly what we would expect him to do. Get Quebec a bigger voice. (Not necessarily separation.)

The next 6 weeks will be interesting. I'll be watching to see how Rae and Iggy handle themselves and totally ignore Dion. Dion is the "throw the stick for the media dogs" guy and will be forefront in the news. :canada:
I think you make some great points though I disagree on the funding thing - that's very new it only came to play after the sponsorship scandal. The Reform/new Conservatives have always been very good at fundraising. The Liberals since their self-imposed restrictions as well as the other parties? Not so much...

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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:50 pm

Lerriuqs wrote:
Ron wrote:Here's how I see things "Blame" wise.

1. Jack Layton. Bob Rae. I have little doubt this deal was born here. Rae kinda did something like this to oust the Conservatives in Ontario (deal with Peterson) and is doing it again. Layton is the weasel he always was from his local Toronto days.

2. Harper. That man may be smart ... but he too smart. He has no "street sense" and misreads the populations mood. Calling unwanted elections claiming the Hill was broken while now claiming he can make it work?? The opposition now using his own reasons for the last election against him ... fueling separation fears to remain in power, etc. He needs to take a PR course or something. Oh ... and cutting off their money. What would the outrage be if the roles were reversed and Chretien did it to the Reform party years ago? You know ... when the Libs were the rich one's.

3. Dion. This stooge will do anything to get him name in the history books. He's nothing but a pawn yet acts like he's Captain Canada out to save the nation. No character. His blame would be higher if he had anything to do with this.

4. Iggy. I really get the sense that Iggy doesn't like what's going on but as you say ... has to go along to get along. He's the Liberal who left a door of hope open that Harper will to do the right thing in January while others were hard lining it.

5. Duceppe. I have zero blame for him. He's doing exactly what we would expect him to do. Get Quebec a bigger voice. (Not necessarily separation.)

The next 6 weeks will be interesting. I'll be watching to see how Rae and Iggy handle themselves and totally ignore Dion. Dion is the "throw the stick for the media dogs" guy and will be forefront in the news. :canada:
I think you make some great points though I disagree on the funding thing - that's very new it only came to play after the sponsorship scandal. The Reform/new Conservatives have always been very good at fundraising. The Liberals since their self-imposed restrictions as well as the other parties? Not so much...

thats cuz our base doesnt hav as much money as the consevatives.

and Layton is god!
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Inquiring Mind » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:08 pm

I find all the faux-outrage rather humorous... there isn't a single one of them that wouldn't throw their mother to the wolves for a taste of power. It's all politicking, which should really be surprising, these guys are politicians after all.

At this point I don't really care who's in power, I just don't want to see more money wasted on yet another election. I don't share the outrage of many in this coalition... coalitions are quite common throughout Europe, and I think we should start getting our heads around the idea here too, because while majority governments have largely been the rule in the past, I think those days are done, and from now on they will be the exception. As far as the apparent issue of the Bloc being involved, Meh, I don't have an ounce of doubt Harper would jump in bed with them too if he thought it would benefit him in the least.

So, in conclusion... VOTE RHINO!

Did get me thinking about the role of the Governor General though (I imagine she'll be angling for a raise now that she actually had to do something that wasn't purely symbolic)... I seem to recall learning at one point that he/she could after an election where there is no majority elected they do have some power in declaring the PM, and if a coalition was formed that the leader of the party with the most seats does not necessarily become PM. I could see the position and appointment becoming very politicized now that we are in the era of minority governments.
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:39 pm

nah the GG position must remand unbias and apolitical, and when you think bout the decision she made, it was the best motive that wasnt neither left or right.

and unlike the King and Witiam affairs, it will unlikly lead to any more or less republican setiment.
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Ron » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:29 pm

Inquiring Mind wrote:
Did get me thinking about the role of the Governor General though (I imagine she'll be angling for a raise now that she actually had to do something that wasn't purely symbolic)... I seem to recall learning at one point that he/she could after an election where there is no majority elected they do have some power in declaring the PM, and if a coalition was formed that the leader of the party with the most seats does not necessarily become PM. I could see the position and appointment becoming very politicized now that we are in the era of minority governments.
It's the Queen who'll demand a raise now that she has to decide things in the colony. :beer:
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Re: Check this out - Harper would have done it too.

Post by Lerriuqs » Wed Dec 10, 2008 12:35 pm

Kanga-Kucha wrote:
Lerriuqs wrote:
Ron wrote:Here's how I see things "Blame" wise.

1. Jack Layton. Bob Rae. I have little doubt this deal was born here. Rae kinda did something like this to oust the Conservatives in Ontario (deal with Peterson) and is doing it again. Layton is the weasel he always was from his local Toronto days.

2. Harper. That man may be smart ... but he too smart. He has no "street sense" and misreads the populations mood. Calling unwanted elections claiming the Hill was broken while now claiming he can make it work?? The opposition now using his own reasons for the last election against him ... fueling separation fears to remain in power, etc. He needs to take a PR course or something. Oh ... and cutting off their money. What would the outrage be if the roles were reversed and Chretien did it to the Reform party years ago? You know ... when the Libs were the rich one's.

3. Dion. This stooge will do anything to get him name in the history books. He's nothing but a pawn yet acts like he's Captain Canada out to save the nation. No character. His blame would be higher if he had anything to do with this.

4. Iggy. I really get the sense that Iggy doesn't like what's going on but as you say ... has to go along to get along. He's the Liberal who left a door of hope open that Harper will to do the right thing in January while others were hard lining it.

5. Duceppe. I have zero blame for him. He's doing exactly what we would expect him to do. Get Quebec a bigger voice. (Not necessarily separation.)

The next 6 weeks will be interesting. I'll be watching to see how Rae and Iggy handle themselves and totally ignore Dion. Dion is the "throw the stick for the media dogs" guy and will be forefront in the news. :canada:
I think you make some great points though I disagree on the funding thing - that's very new it only came to play after the sponsorship scandal. The Reform/new Conservatives have always been very good at fundraising. The Liberals since their self-imposed restrictions as well as the other parties? Not so much...

thats cuz our base doesnt hav as much money as the consevatives.
I don't buy that for a second - as an example, there are many LIberals and their supporters that are very well-heeled...And the NDP has the support of unions - many of who are very overpaid for the work they do...

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