Auto Industry.

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Auto Industry.

Post by jaxon » Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:26 pm

Looking backwards, it certainly was the right call by the GG to Prorogue Parliament, otherwise, the 3 stooges would have thrown billions of dollars at the automakers to save that which appears unsaveable.

The USA voted down the bailout. If there is any hope for a bailout to work (and I don't think that there is), it would have to be a joint project from Canada and the USA, and involve serious concessions from the unions.

It appears that the UAW is to blame for the collapse, but the CAW is no better. They could have had a deal but they would have had to have brought their gross (including benefits) costs in line with the competition. The UAW decided to be greedy, and the deal fell apart.

Link:
http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/1212 ... -auto.html

[i]"Republicans, breaking sharply with President George W. Bush as his term draws to a close, refused to back federal aid for Detroit's beleaguered Big Three without a guarantee that the United Auto Workers would agree by the end of next year to wage cuts to bring their pay into line with Japanese carmakers. The UAW refused to do so before its current contract with the automakers expires in 2011."[/i]



And before anyone gets worked up about "3rd world" wages etc....here is the match value (same link)

"GM says the average UAW labourer makes US$29.78 per hour, while Toyota says it pays about US$30 per hour."

Including active workers only, the total cost (including benefits) to GM is $69 per hour, while Toyota is at $48 per hour.


In Canada, the leader of the CAW is Ken Lewenza, who is equally out to lunch:

""We're pleading - in particular with Mr. Harper - to move and move swiftly," said Lewenza, who insisted that wage cuts for autoworkers won't solve the financial problems of the Detroit Three. "
:puke:
link:
http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/1212 ... three.html


In total it burns my butt that these union leaders just want the taxpayers to send them money, but they aren't willing to participate in revamping the operations.

I would hope that the CAW and UAW's membership will have their own coup d'etat and overthrow the overpaid union leaders, and elect people who understand that a well paid job is much better than no job at all. Being overpaid in the past was great for them, but that ship has sunk.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Cool » Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:52 pm

jaxon wrote: ""We're pleading - in particular with Mr. Harper - to move and move swiftly," said Lewenza, who insisted that wage cuts for autoworkers won't solve the financial problems of the Detroit Three. "
:puke:
Right on. :whs:
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:14 pm

May not solve the problems but it might help solve the problems!
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Gerry » Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:21 pm

I'm not in favour of a bailout either, BUT I also want to maintain a domestic North American auto industry. Also, at this time, any more negative economic news would be bad for our economy.

I'm not sure why a bailout has to mean all 3 companies. I'd rather see them help the strongest one and let the other two die a natural death. Exact some concessions, make sure there's a good plan in place, and that the money is eventually paid back.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Solar Max » Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:51 pm

People who know nothing of the industry, the unfair trade practices involved, and the hamstringing of our own people should not shoot their mouths off in public fora, IMO.

Exporting one's GDP to Nagoya while putting 7 million North Americans out of work is sound economic policy...to the people who have posted in this thread. Perhaps some research would be an idea before proving one's own ignorance of this subject in public?
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Lerriuqs » Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:25 pm

Solar Max wrote:People who know nothing of the industry, the unfair trade practices involved, and the hamstringing of our own people should not shoot their mouths off in public fora, IMO.

Exporting one's GDP to Nagoya while putting 7 million North Americans out of work is sound economic policy...to the people who have posted in this thread. Perhaps some research would be an idea before proving one's own ignorance of this subject in public?
Why not provide some facts yourself instead of insulting these posters while only providing opinion...

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:43 pm

Here are some points that people might find interesting

" According to Forbes:

Average labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

The average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan."

And here are lists of the cars actually built in Canada. Pilfered this from a blog so I won't categorically vouch for it but it sounds about right.

Carguides '08 Buyers Guide --
MADE IN CANADA:
Acura CS, Chevrolet Impala,Crysler 300, Dodge Charger, Dodge Magnum, Honda Civic, Mercury Marquis, Pontiac Grand Prix, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, Acura MDX, Chevrolet Equinox, Crysler Town & Country, Crysler Pacifica, Dodge Grand Caravan, Ford Edge, Ford Flex, Lexus RX 350, Lincoln MDX, Pontiac Torrent, Suzuki XL7, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Honda Ridgeline.[/color]

09 - Honda Rav4 will be built in Canada the Chevrolet Silverado no more.

So the auto industry in Canada isn't just the big 3 that much is certain. If one, two or all three fail(unlikely), clearly there would still be an auto industry of sorts.

However, I believe the Canadian bailout plan was contingent on the US one going through. It may be all moot now because that has apparently died a horrible twitching death.
Last edited by Sir Purrcival on Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by jaxon » Sat Dec 13, 2008 11:31 am

Solar Max wrote:People who know nothing of the industry, the unfair trade practices involved, and the hamstringing of our own people should not shoot their mouths off in public fora, IMO.

Exporting one's GDP to Nagoya while putting 7 million North Americans out of work is sound economic policy...to the people who have posted in this thread. Perhaps some research would be an idea before proving one's own ignorance of this subject in public?
and perhaps some people should be aware that those of us not in the automotive industry do not want our dollars sent there!

I'm all in favour of having domestic manufacturing. What I'm not in favour of is having my hard earned money taken from me via taxation, to be given to people who are paid outlandishly high salaries and wages. All of the posters on this site pay taxes, and we are entitled to some say in how those taxes are spent. Sir Purrcival and I have both posted data in terms of wage information and links as to where that information comes from. If you have facts, I would suggest that you post them with links rather than take gratuitous shots.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Argos_fever » Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:50 pm

Sir Purrcival wrote: Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

The average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan."
University professors make much of their income from writing textbooks they then force their students to buy. Looking at nothing but their salary is misleading.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Cool » Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:18 pm

Sir Purrcival wrote:Here are some points that people might find interesting

" According to Forbes:

Average labor cost per hour, wages and benefits for hourly workers, 2006.

Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

The average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan."

And here are lists of the cars actually built in Canada. Pilfered this from a blog so I won't categorically vouch for it but it sounds about right.

Carguides '08 Buyers Guide --
MADE IN CANADA:
Acura CS, Chevrolet Impala,Crysler 300, Dodge Charger, Dodge Magnum, Honda Civic, Mercury Marquis, Pontiac Grand Prix, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, Acura MDX, Chevrolet Equinox, Crysler Town & Country, Crysler Pacifica, Dodge Grand Caravan, Ford Edge, Ford Flex, Lexus RX 350, Lincoln MDX, Pontiac Torrent, Suzuki XL7, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Sierra, Honda Ridgeline.[/color]

09 - Honda Rav4 will be built in Canada the Chevrolet Silverado no more.

So the auto industry in Canada isn't just the big 3 that much is certain. If one, two or all three fail(unlikely), clearly there would still be an auto industry of sorts.

However, I believe the Canadian bailout plan was contingent on the US one going through. It may be all moot now because that has apparently died a horrible twitching death.
So the red ones or all of them?
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:51 pm

All of them, the ones in red are done so because they are often the kind of vehicle that people label as "imports". The basic issue is that the "import" isn't necessarily an import anymore and the domestic isn't necessarily a domestic. Heard one fellow on the radio today saying that his 2006 Dodge Dakota was made in Mexico.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:07 pm

Argos_fever wrote:
Sir Purrcival wrote: Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

The average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan."
University professors make much of their income from writing textbooks they then force their students to buy. Looking at nothing but their salary is misleading.
Tell Forbes that. Comparing different professions is a little like comparing apples to oranges but the comparison to other automobile manufacturers maybe ought to be the more meaningful one. I don't really take a position on the wages excepting that when times are difficult, everybody should be doing a little belt tightening from the CEO on down. If some or all of them can't see their way to doing that, then at the end of the day, they will get what they get whether that be survival or bankruptcy.

The bottom line is that when times are tough, the best products are generally ones that people will invest in. If you don't have them, you run the risk of being shut out. If the big 3 are in such peril, it is because they have failed overall to provide a product which people want. They are losing the battle on what is considered their home turf and have done so pretty much since the early 80's. They have closed the gap at times and in certain markets but you will have a hard time for the most part convincing the majority of folks that the domestic auto is better engineered and constructed than most imports.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Catssuck » Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:22 pm

Argos_fever wrote:
Sir Purrcival wrote: Ford: $70.51 ($141,020 per year)

GM: $73.26 ($146,520 per year)

Chrysler: $75.86 ($151,720 per year)

Toyota, Honda, Nissan (in U.S.): $48.00 ($96,000 per year)

The average annual compensation for a college professor in 2006 was $92,973 (average salary nationally of $73,207 + 27% benefits).

Bottom Line: The average UAW worker with a high school degree earns 57.6% more compensation than the average university professor with a Ph.D. and 52.6% more than the average worker at Toyota, Honda or Nissan."
University professors make much of their income from writing textbooks they then force their students to buy. Looking at nothing but their salary is misleading.

So maybe a few of the auto-workers should write a book.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Gerry » Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:11 am

Solar Max wrote:People who know nothing of the industry, the unfair trade practices involved, and the hamstringing of our own people should not shoot their mouths off in public fora, IMO.

Exporting one's GDP to Nagoya while putting 7 million North Americans out of work is sound economic policy...to the people who have posted in this thread. Perhaps some research would be an idea before proving one's own ignorance of this subject in public?
I've heard the unfair trade practises stuff before, Solar. But the thing to do then is fight unfair trade practises, instead of propping up companies that lose billions of dollars a year.

If its wages and benefits, then that can be addressed as well. But government money going to private companies is not appropriate, IMO. It's a global economy. I'm sure that a guy in country X doesn't care if it's a GM or Toyota he's driving, only if it will do the job he wants at a decent price. (Where country X is neither the USA or Japan, that is, as there are other markets).

I hardly think that government not bailing out these companies equates to "putting 7 million NA workers out of work" either. The companies themselves are doing that by not being competitive.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Ron » Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:11 am

While I will agree that the big 3 have been really idiotic in their business dealings. That really isn't what has caused this calamity. The lack of flowing credit from banks has caused their operating cash to be cut off. Banks are not lending ... even with the $ they just got from the Fed. And while big car companies get all the press ... even little mom and pops are being badly hurt by those same restrictions. Regardless of what their sales are right now.

To show how screwed up it is in the States compared to us. I know a guy in the States. Approx $125K income. Debt free other than car payment. House still worth about $400K (after a $250K value drop this year) and has about $225K in equity. He just got turned down for a $20K home equity loan to do a basement reno ... by 3 banks. If that's not overly tight credit flow ... you got me.

It's just a shame that the auto sector is now being played by "partisan" politics. We all know the democrats (new regime coming in) would not have gone after wages. (nor would the pubbies if their was 2 years left in Bush's term) The Republicans (some) know that this is a hot button for the population ... so the populous will focus on that ... and not on how they (pubbies) are screwing this up.

Save the autos. The washout of wages and restructuring will certainly follow in the couple of years to come regardless.
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