Auto Industry.

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Solar Max
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Solar Max » Tue Dec 16, 2008 6:20 am

Gerry wrote: I've heard the unfair trade practises stuff before, Solar. But the thing to do then is fight unfair trade practises, instead of propping up companies that lose billions of dollars a year.
So get it done, Government loving Import boy.

GM, Ford and Chrysler don't write laws regarding trade practices; your elected criminals do. For years the manufacturers here told the government about Japan's artificial lowering of their currency values (pretending to be in a 14 year long recession, for example) the dumping of product here below cost, the inability of North American goods (not just autos) to enter the closed Japanese markets, the payment in full of Toyota's Synergy drive by the Japanese government (while Ford and GM had to pay for their own Hybrid systems), and the attack on our electronics industry by the Japanese in the 70s and 80s. How many North American TVs have you seen made here for the last 30 years? Zero.

Here it is for you, Gerry: you don't know your facts, you only know your own unassailable views. Putting 5 million people out of work may seem like poop and giggles to you, but to a reeling North American economy, it's a death blow.

Do some research before you go run off at the mouth next time, please.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Gerry » Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:39 am

Solar Max wrote:
Gerry wrote: I've heard the unfair trade practises stuff before, Solar. But the thing to do then is fight unfair trade practises, instead of propping up companies that lose billions of dollars a year.
So get it done, Government loving Import boy.

GM, Ford and Chrysler don't write laws regarding trade practices; your elected criminals do. For years the manufacturers here told the government about Japan's artificial lowering of their currency values (pretending to be in a 14 year long recession, for example) the dumping of product here below cost, the inability of North American goods (not just autos) to enter the closed Japanese markets, the payment in full of Toyota's Synergy drive by the Japanese government (while Ford and GM had to pay for their own Hybrid systems), and the attack on our electronics industry by the Japanese in the 70s and 80s. How many North American TVs have you seen made here for the last 30 years? Zero.

Here it is for you, Gerry: you don't know your facts, you only know your own unassailable views. Putting 5 million people out of work may seem like poop and giggles to you, but to a reeling North American economy, it's a death blow.

Do some research before you go run off at the mouth next time, please.
If the heads of GM, Chrysler, and Ford cannot get the US government to see their side in all of this, what am I to do, Lawrence? I mean, there are trade laws and anti-dumping regulations that could be used if the case you make is accurate. The US would certainly have an incentive to see that their manufacturers have a fair market for their goods. The US government has also put big dollars into research such as the hydrogen fuel cells, which has gone nowhere, but the big 3 ate that money up regardless.

And, why can the big 3 not build what people are buying? When gas was cheap they cranked out the pickups and the vans and the SUVs, but people also wanted and bought the smaller products from the Japanese and German makers. Detroit seems to be incapable of building a Civic or Rabbit or Fit. Those cars fit the world market much better than an Escalade, don't they? But, the perception is that the US makers can't or won't build those cars. Whose fault is that?

Now, I'll admit that I don't keep up with the auto industry to the degree that you do, but I'm not ignorant, nor am I "Import Boy", whatever that means. You know better. I also don't feel the need to do any research to basically come up with excuses for why the big 3 can't stay viable. The bottom line is that they can't because they aren't doing it, whatever the reason. How much money does GM lose every quarter, anyway? And that was before the current economic situation.

I've pretty much always had GM products, with the odd Ford thrown in. My wife likes VWs and I don't begrudge her that. They make very good small cars, better IMO than anything the US makers produce in that size.

Bottom line, I don't see the value in propping up companies that will only need more taxpayer dollars in less than a year. What's going to change in that time that they will suddenly become profitable, or even viable?

I know that you are passionate about this subject, Lawrence. For the most part, if you're arguing with me, I'll see your side in this more than most people would, so insulting me won't do you any good. If GM can make money selling a good pickup at $35K and a Jap truck of equal quality is $33K, I'll still buy the GM, for a few reasons. Most people wouldn't, and you know that.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Terencius1 » Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:45 pm

Well, As a keynesian, I am in favour of a massive stimulation package, plus, aid to the auto industry, forestry, sectors. ETC

The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)

Aid to the Auto industry doesn't really affect us in the west, but it represnts over a half a million jobs in Ontario and Quebec.

It just ticks me off that the Tories, the De-regulaters that caused this mess, aren't being called to account.

Didn't we hear for years to "free up the markets" Government is BAD. REGUALTION IS BAD!!.
"Let's free up the markets" "and all will be well" they said!

It's precisely, that ideology that got us into this mess. And not an apology in sight.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Ron » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:04 am

Terencius1 wrote:Well, As a keynesian, I am in favour of a massive stimulation package, plus, aid to the auto industry, forestry, sectors. ETC

The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)

Aid to the Auto industry doesn't really affect us in the west, but it represnts over a half a million jobs in Ontario and Quebec.

It just ticks me off that the Tories, the De-regulaters that caused this mess, aren't being called to account.

Didn't we hear for years to "free up the markets" Government is BAD. REGUALTION IS BAD!!.
"Let's free up the markets" "and all will be well" they said!

It's precisely, that ideology that got us into this mess. And not an apology in sight.
You nailed the States too. The big date was in 2004 when the SEC (The independent regulators ... Not the Bush administration) changed the risk ratio from 8 to 1 (Money banks can lend to amount of assets) to 40 to 1. That idea was spearheaded by the head of Golman Sachs at the time. The head of Sachs (sp?) was sure this would lead to prosperity and pressured/lobbied the SEC to act. They did and it led to the real estate boom we saw that came to a pop.

Now who's idea was this? Who was the head of Sachs at the time? Paulson! You know ... the Treasury Secretary of today who didn't see it coming and the one fixing it.

Imagine the position any Prez would be in. You hire to be Treasury dude a highly sought after and respected money man. (just as Obama just did) Only to find out years later that this dude was the brainchild behind the biggest financial debacle since the 30's. And now you're between a rock and a hard place because you can't fire his ass because that would cause even more chaos than we have seen. And guess who takes the blame for the whole mess. The usual suspect.

Anyways ... back to cars. i think we'll see this drag until Obama comes into office. Then Obama will "do what is necessary" to free the funds that the banks are hording due to risk aversion. He will do that by guaranteeing all the funds lent to open the floodgates. (though more controlled as the SEC will have some answering to do) Then we'll see the turn begin but we'll also see the US dollar go into the toilet. Good for Western Canada. :beer:

The irony? This crisis was caused by a decision by the SEC ... which itself was created in 1929 (IIRC) to prevent decisions like this one. :?
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Sir Purrcival » Wed Dec 17, 2008 12:56 am

I agree completely with some regulation of the economy. When left to its own devices, peoples greed will often get the better of them and they will pursue business practices that are neither sound or sensible. However, aid to ailing industries must be done with a mind to long term sustainability. There is no point in taking the hard earned money of Canadian Taxpayers and pumping it into industries that will only be back in trouble as soon as the injection of funds runs out. On some occasions, it is better practice to let something fall on it's face and allow for a complete restructuring of that industry. Now as this pertains to the Auto industry, there are two basic issues; demand and product. As it stands right now, the supply far outstrips the demand based on peoples ability to pay. With all the choices available, it comes down to too many hands trying to grab too small a piece of pie. In those situations, it is usually the best product that manages to grab the biggest share of the pie while the rest go without. Which brings us right around to the second issue; product. While making some big improvements in some of their products over the years, the big 3 have also not been especially clever either.

If you look at the big 3, how many years were they catering to the Truck and SUV crowd? Durango's, Expeditions, 4x4's. All vehicles that have a useful place but not as everyday commuter vehicles which is how so many have been used. When the price of gas goes up, pop goes the demand. All you have to do is look at the advertising during a regular CFL game. How many times in one game do you see GM's Silverado 8, 10 times? Chrysler with it renaissance of the performance auto in the Challenger or GM's Camaro. All way too impractcal in a world with diminishing resources. In short, they have really pushed vehicles which shouldn't be day to day users and aren't going to be big sellers when times are tough. Sure some will want their play things and others will have their work needs but the name of the game in this market is practical, reliable, economical transportation. It always will be the bread and butter of the market. If the public doesn't see that first and most often, you are in trouble. Minivans are boring but they do a hell of a job and you see tons of them out there. That was what saved Chrysler in the 80,s, not the Imperials, New Yorkers or the Dodge Rams. It was such a good idea that even the Japanese were quick to jump in with their own versions. In short, sometimes you have to have the vision to see what people are likely going to need and push that option even though it isn't flashy. It also needs to work well. So many times with domestics, small seems to equal marginal quality and that is a non starter too (pun intended). If it isn't flashy, it has to be good and that's a race where GM, Ford and Chrysler just haven't ever completely caught up with the Toyota's, Nissans and have in some cases been passed (Hyundai for example).

So in short, it may be necessary for one or two of the big three to crumble. It will be fewer hands in the kitchen and maybe a way to restructure the domestic industry. I might be way off base I know and what I am suggesting comes with a terrible human cost but these 3 have been in the chase position for more than 30 years. They have had ample time to get their act together and have at times shown some inclination in those directions but too often as well have they let gains slip away or fallen back on tried methods only to leave themselves vulnerable.

PS. I drive a Chrysler. I love it, it is a great vehicle, practical and very well engineered. Oh yeah, Chrysler discontinued it in 2008 after only 4 years. The sad part about it was that I never saw one blinkn commercial from them about it. I knew what kind of vehicle I required and it was only by chance one day that I discovered that they even had one that fit my requirements. When it comes time to replace it, I will now get squat for it because who wants a vehicle where it will be difficult to get parts and you will never see one at the wreckers. Oh and if Chrysler should disappear, I have no idea what will happen to my warranty and I will get even less for it in that case because who will want a vehicle from a company that may no longer exist.
Last edited by Sir Purrcival on Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Lerriuqs » Wed Dec 17, 2008 7:14 am

Terencius1 wrote: The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)
Does it hurt being wrong all the time? They didn't give money to the banks - they bought insured mortgages worth $75 billion to free up liquidity for the banks. These mortgages won't create a deficit because they're investments.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Catssuck » Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:09 pm

Lerriuqs wrote:
Terencius1 wrote: The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)
Does it hurt being wrong all the time? They didn't give money to the banks - they bought insured mortgages worth $75 billion to free up liquidity for the banks. These mortgages won't create a deficit because they're investments.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good leftist spin on things.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by prairiedog » Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:45 pm

The auto industry will be fine.

If the govt gives the auto industry a bailout, I'll ask them if they'll pay my rent after I waste my paycheck on hookers and blow.

The auto industry has had ample time and resources to manage their margins during economic boom, yet have milked away all the profit that they could, without so mmuch as stuffing a small rainy day stocking.

They know damn well that this economic downturn (LIKE EVERY ONE BEFORE IT) is temporary. Those with the wereweithall and clout (umm like say MASSIVE car manufacturers) can weather the storm until the market corrects itself.

SMART MONEY IS ALWAYS LONG TERM.

They're only crying for free money because - hey its free money and they might just get it.

The auto industry will be fine.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Gerry » Thu Dec 18, 2008 4:03 pm

The auto industry may be fine, in a sense (things will be slow all over for a while), but GM and Chrysler won't be fine at all. Ford will stick around even without government help, for a while at least. But Chrysler looks to be toast and GM is not far behind them.

Toyota and VW and the rest of the imports look to be healthy, but our NA industry is in for a rough road, even with government assistance.

So, to say that the auto industry will be fine is technically correct, PD, but our NA auto industry is far from fine.

Latest I heard today is that the US is inclined to allow the NA auto industry to go into a "structured bankruptcy". I take that to mean GM and Chrysler because Ford has enough money to last another year or so. Also heard that Nissan wants to take over Chrysler's mini-van and Jeep divisions.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Terencius1 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:28 pm

Catssuck wrote:
Lerriuqs wrote:
Terencius1 wrote: The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)
Does it hurt being wrong all the time? They didn't give money to the banks - they bought insured mortgages worth $75 billion to free up liquidity for the banks. These mortgages won't create a deficit because they're investments.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good leftist spin on things.
All right, the government bought 75 Billion worth of "high risk Mortages" from the Banks, and gave them another 50 billion to free up credit, to which the banks responded by raising their loan rates to businesses and consumers.

Ah yes, a big thanks to the banks for passing along their savings to the customers, NOT. ANd a big thanks to the Harper government for NOT insisting that the banks pass along their windfall.

Speaking of greed, I'm glad, I bank at a credit union.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Terencius1 » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:28 pm

Catssuck wrote:
Lerriuqs wrote:
Terencius1 wrote: The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)
Does it hurt being wrong all the time? They didn't give money to the banks - they bought insured mortgages worth $75 billion to free up liquidity for the banks. These mortgages won't create a deficit because they're investments.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good leftist spin on things.
All right, the government bought 75 Billion worth of "high risk Mortages" from the Banks, and gave them another 50 billion to free up credit, to which the banks responded by raising their loan rates to businesses and consumers.

Ah yes, a big thanks to the banks for passing along their savings to the customers, NOT. ANd a big thanks to the Harper government for NOT insisting that the banks pass along their windfall.

Speaking of greed, I'm glad, I bank at a credit union.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Lerriuqs » Thu Dec 18, 2008 7:34 pm

Terencius1 wrote:
Catssuck wrote:
Lerriuqs wrote:
Terencius1 wrote: The Government has already given 125 Million to the banks. Yet, they claim not to have a deficit.(HA HA)
Does it hurt being wrong all the time? They didn't give money to the banks - they bought insured mortgages worth $75 billion to free up liquidity for the banks. These mortgages won't create a deficit because they're investments.

But don't let the facts get in the way of a good leftist spin on things.
All right, the government bought 75 Billion worth of "high risk Mortages" from the Banks, and gave them another 50 billion to free up credit, to which the banks responded by raising their loan rates to businesses and consumers.

Ah yes, a big thanks to the banks for passing along their savings to the customers, NOT. ANd a big thanks to the Harper government for NOT insisting that the banks pass along their windfall.

Speaking of greed, I'm glad, I bank at a credit union.
No they bought 75 billion of insured mortgages - not high risk. CMHC had previously insured all of the mortgages the Government bought. They gave them 75 billion in total. 25 billion at first and then another 50 billion. They haven't paid anything beyond the 75 billion.

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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by prairiedog » Thu Dec 18, 2008 8:13 pm

Gerry wrote:The auto industry may be fine, in a sense (things will be slow all over for a while), but GM and Chrysler won't be fine at all. Ford will stick around even without government help, for a while at least. But Chrysler looks to be toast and GM is not far behind them.

Toyota and VW and the rest of the imports look to be healthy, but our NA industry is in for a rough road, even with government assistance.

So, to say that the auto industry will be fine is technically correct, PD, but our NA auto industry is far from fine.

Latest I heard today is that the US is inclined to allow the NA auto industry to go into a "structured bankruptcy". I take that to mean GM and Chrysler because Ford has enough money to last another year or so. Also heard that Nissan wants to take over Chrysler's mini-van and Jeep divisions.
I believe that the auto industriy's woes are real, but nothing they can't cope with. The more they exaggerate their problems the better chance that crocodile tears brings free money.

Would they like a 9 figure interest free loan for 2 or 3 yeras to save jobs while they ride out the storm? THAT I might listen to, but they just want a handout. Sorry, all that does is teach large corporate canada that they can mismanage all they want and the taxpayer will underwrite them. 90% of the world's communication these days is done with money. What a bailout says is "we will save your ass when you screw up, so go ahead and keep screwing up."

No the automakers did not cause the economic slowdown, but they didn't buy themselves an umbrella when the weather wasgood either.

I changed jobs in July, I moved in September. for 6 weeks I had a 60-90 minute commute each way in gridlock traffic. Gas was 1.40. Fuel was nearly half my rent. I didn't cry for a handout. I dealt with it. I tightened my belt. Less subs at quiznos, no nights out at the bar for 6 weeks. You'll notice that I missed several tailgates this summer. I can't incorporate myself and give myself a directors wage to make sure my corporate self breaks even and avoids taxes, but all my bills are paid and there's food in my fridge. Where are the profits that were drawn out to 6 and 7 figure boardroom salaries, many of whom also sit on the boards of banks and oilcompanies, and some are even senators.

They sucked their well dry and now that the drought hit they're crying? Like I said before, if they get a handout, then I want the govt to pay my rent so I can blow my paycheck at the bar! Fair is fair.

On principle, HELL no!
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by Ron » Fri Dec 19, 2008 10:09 am

Actually P-Dog. The Big 3 would just like to be able to get a loan to operate. They don't have the advantages the foreign car makers do right now in that area.
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Re: Auto Industry.

Post by prairiedog » Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:02 pm

4 billion.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0812 ... tos_canada

What about all the industries that were smart enough to NOT get caught out?

Yea, officially it's a loan, but 5 years from now when none of it is paid back it won't make the news.
ping wrote:Funny thing is all argo fans should support the cats and vise-versa. There not our enemy, Montreal is!!
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