Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

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Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by cfldave » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:39 pm

Is it my business (or the state's for that Matter) if you decide to kill yourself?
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by B-17 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:40 pm

Not a fair question out of context.

As far as I know, it is not illegal if one chooses to kill oneself. Where it gets grey is if that person wants someone else to assist.

As society, we should care if someone wishes to kill themself, for whatever the reason.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by cfldave » Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:11 pm

The question was not whether its legal or not but whether its anybody elses business?
By that I mean we as a society, and of course individually, habitually campaign against sucicide. We discourage anyone from actually committing suicide to the extent that anyone wishing to kill himself is usually considered mentally incompetempt. They can be forced into psychiatric treatment and often held against their will during this treatment despite the fact that no crime has been committed.
Combined with criminal prosecution of those who would assist a suicide as well, we clearly make it the state's business as to whether one should kill oneself.
It's has been and is a religious issue as well as Islam, for example, says suicide is not permissable, unless of course you get yourself killed while killing enemies of Islam (a convenient exception). The Ten Commandments say "Thou shall not kill" historically the rationale used by Christian society to forbid suicide upon pain of estate seizure and having your body dragged through the streets, impaled in the heart by a stake and buried under a crossroads.
But all this aside should it be anyone's business but mine if I decide to cash in my chips and if Uncle Harry wants to help then why not? If it were a situation that someone's suicide somehow harmed the state or others individually then I can see cause for intervention but that not being the case why should anyone object?
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by B-17 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:57 pm

well, from a pragmatic perspective, how do you distinguish between the perfectly rational, fully sane, weighed all options and have soundly decided they are ready to extinguish themselves, from the person who is clinically depressed and rquires treatment? Would you really trust this kind of judgement to a government panel, for example?

If someone reallly wants to kill themselves and is fully in control of their faculties, they can certainly do so. Now, I wouldn't want to be the relative or friend who has to find the body, mind you.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by cfldave » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:40 pm

B-17 wrote:well, from a pragmatic perspective, how do you distinguish between the perfectly rational, fully sane, weighed all options and have soundly decided they are ready to extinguish themselves, from the person who is clinically depressed and rquires treatment? Would you really trust this kind of judgement to a government panel, for example?
Intriguing thought, requiring a license to kill yourself, the ultimate intrusion even more invasive than those infamous body pat downs at US airports.

Without trying to be insensitive should someone not have the mental competence to determine whether they can kill themselves or not just codemns them to continue living the life they are so miserably having. Even if they only think they are having a miserable life and really aren't (by somebody else's standard) why shouldn't they kill themselves if they want to. Then at least their real or perceived misery will be over. And really, once you are dead you don't care.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by hfxbomberfan » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:31 pm

What has this got to do with football ? :? :thdn:

Unless your team didn't make the play-offs ? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by RLeb » Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:25 am

hfxbomberfan wrote:What has this got to do with football ? :? :thdn:
This is not the football section... lol
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by B-17 » Sun Nov 21, 2010 5:09 pm

cfldave wrote:
B-17 wrote:well, from a pragmatic perspective, how do you distinguish between the perfectly rational, fully sane, weighed all options and have soundly decided they are ready to extinguish themselves, from the person who is clinically depressed and rquires treatment? Would you really trust this kind of judgement to a government panel, for example?
Intriguing thought, requiring a license to kill yourself, the ultimate intrusion even more invasive than those infamous body pat downs at US airports.

Without trying to be insensitive should someone not have the mental competence to determine whether they can kill themselves or not just codemns them to continue living the life they are so miserably having. Even if they only think they are having a miserable life and really aren't (by somebody else's standard) why shouldn't they kill themselves if they want to. Then at least their real or perceived misery will be over. And really, once you are dead you don't care.
But that's my point. You are trying to make the point that suicide should be sanctioned. But it's one of those cases where the logistics of how that would be done are beyond the ability of our society. Therefore, society takes the more conservative, cautious view of banning it or at least discouraging it, because there is no way to do the opposite (condoning it) in a way without risk.

Now, morally or spiritually, I'm not sure I would want to be part of a society so indifferent to another that if someone wanted to permanently remove themself, they would be simply be allowed to do so, without anyone caring enought to try to understand why, or prevent it. Because once done, there is no "do-over".
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by cfldave » Thu Dec 09, 2010 3:37 pm

There are societies that condone suicide so it begs the question what is right. Well right is always a matter of perspective isn't it? Just like whether someone should be mentally competent before being allowd to kill themselves.

If perspective is the grounds for decision making and it almost always is, then there should be no restriction, legal, religious or nondenomational societal, placed in front of a suicide.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by T-Bone » Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:46 am

cfldave wrote:There are societies that condone suicide so it begs the question what is right.
For example?
cfldave wrote:Well right is always a matter of perspective isn't it?
That is why we have law. Suicide was illegal in Canada. Obviously if someone was successful they could not be arrested, tried and convicted but if someone was unsuccessful they could have been. The law was removed from the criminal code because people realized it sends the wrong message and that people that are suicidal should be treated not imprisoned. This conclusion came from research.
cfldave wrote:Just like whether someone should be mentally competent before being allowd to kill themselves.
A lot of research has been done on suicide. The highest risk group for suicide is mid to late teen boys. There are many factors for this such as puberty, pressers in school, from parents, from society, etc. Suicide is a cry for help in most cases but unfortunately once it's done it can't be undone that is why people are urged to recognize the signs of a suicidal person. Giving away personal possession is one example, etc.
cfldave wrote:If perspective is the grounds for decision making and it almost always is, then there should be no restriction, legal, religious or nondenomational societal, placed in front of a suicide.
Perspective is not the grounds for decision making. It may be the start but then debate takes place, research, trail and error. We tend to boil things down to right and wrong but the truth is the world is more complex then that because we are not always logical/rational beings. Self preservation is a natural instinct in the animal kingdom and in humans but we have emotions and there are times when our emotions cloud our judgment and over power our rational thinking.

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Sir Purrcival » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:07 am

This really is a discussion of two fundamental issues.

1. a persons right to choose

2. the states right to intervene in the lives of individuals.

The short answer is that both have merit.

We accept and encourage state control over some aspects of our lives. Otherwise we would have anarchy. Before it was state control it was religious control, setting down rules of acceptable conduct and punishments for violations either in this life or the next.

We also believe in freedom of choice. The right to vote how we want, worship how we want, live where we want, do what we want for a living and so on.

Unfortunately, suicide falls right on the borderline of these two fundamentals. On the one hand, if a person is of sound mind, has thoughtfully and carefully considered the options and decides that they would rather not carry on living, then many would say that is their choice. Take someone who is diagnosed with an incurable disease that will result in a slow, painful degeneration until death. Some would much rather pass away before that stage rather than go on living for the sake of living. Many could agree with that.

Now take another scenario. Someone in the midst of grief over some horrific event like the sudden loss of a child or spouse. A terrible emotional shock that seems unbearable and unending. A person in that state might well lean towards suicide as a way to end the pain. Would that be a case where society should just stand by and do nothing? A situation where support and counselling may well help that person cope and resume? Most I think would say probably not.

Two completely different scenarios with the same intended outcome. One seems rational, the other not.

The arguments for and against are varied. Some arguments are religious based, (the least cogent of arguments IMO), some are ethical and some legal and economic.

Where does the state come in? In my view, legal suicide should probably be made by application to the state. The reasons need to be submitted, people inteviewed, have that all reviewed by a multidiciplinary board and some kind of decision rendered. In the case of successful application, medical services should be provided to ease the process. A state sanctioned suicide would also prohibit insurance companies and pensions from evading their responsibilities to policy holders and beneficiaries.

Would it work? I can see all sorts of problems with this kind of approach (delays, costs, and so on). People who were denied but determined would probably just go ahead in their own way. However, at least with this approach, all the affected parties can be heard from. A challenge with suicides is that they are seldom about one person. Often there are children, spouses, siblings left behind and a suicide can be as damaging to them if not more so that the suicide victim. They get to carry on with the guilt and the grief long after a person is dead, wondering if they could have done more, done different, was it their fault and so on. They are stakeholders too, whether the person who intends to commit suicide agrees or not.

So while wanting to respect the right to choose, it is also proper to make sure that this choice (being such a drastic one) is made with due consideration and rationale (which in many cases it isn't). If those conditions are met, then people should have the choice.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Kevin Marshall » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:04 am

You don't have any right to take any one's life including your life. Every one has some problems in their life that does not mean that every one should kill themselves just because they cannot resist to their problems. Every one should face the situation very bravely during difficult times. They should have faith in themselves and fight for it instead of being coward and taking life. Also, Killing oneself means to abide God's gift.

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by T-Bone » Wed Dec 15, 2010 9:45 am

Thank you Sir Purrcival for a well thought out articulate response.
Kevin Marshall wrote:You don't have any right to take any one's life including your life. Every one has some problems in their life that does not mean that every one should kill themselves just because they cannot resist to their problems. Every one should face the situation very bravely during difficult times. They should have faith in themselves and fight for it instead of being coward and taking life. Also, Killing oneself means to abide God's gift.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Sir Purrcival » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:05 am

Kevin Marshall wrote:You don't have any right to take any one's life including your life. Every one has some problems in their life that does not mean that every one should kill themselves just because they cannot resist to their problems. Every one should face the situation very bravely during difficult times. They should have faith in themselves and fight for it instead of being coward and taking life. Also, Killing oneself means to abide God's gift.
And you know what, if this is what works for you, terrific. No one is going to force you to end your life or someone elses. Your view of the issue however is overly simplistic. Not everyone (even those who believe in God) see the world in the same way as do you. It isn't a one size fits all situation. I have a view of God that is different from yours. Mine says that people make choices every day. Work, not work, love or hate, be upright or depraved what have you. I am unqualified to decide for someone else how they choose to live or even end their life based on my own personal values. What I do feel comfortable with is the notion that people have the right to explore for themselves the solutions that work for them. I have faith that in most cases people know what is best for themselves over and above someone else. That philosphy is not without limits from society but my preference is for people to live their lives as much as possible by their own design and not by someone elses, even my own. If in some cases, that means people might want to end their lives, then under certain circumstances, I believe that is their right.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by AngeloV » Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:41 pm

RE: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?


If I were a Ti-Cats fan, I think I'd have to .

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