Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Sir Purrcival » Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:15 pm

Nope, that is where I draw the line. Why end a perfectly good self when there are a few idiotic city councillors that might be more suitable? :0
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by FootbalYouBet » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:30 pm

if it is against the law to force a person to die who does not want to

then it should also be against the law to force a person to live who does not want to. Exception for children

I demand the right to die when I want to, and I plead for people to be allowed to assist me if and when I can't do it myself.

It is barbaric cruelty to force someone to continue suffering for who knows how long.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by T-Bone » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:33 pm

FootbalYouBet wrote:if it is against the law to force a person to die who does not want to

then it should also be against the law to force a person to live who does not want to. Exception for children

I demand the right to die when I want to, and I plead for people to be allowed to assist me if and when I can't do it myself.

It is barbaric cruelty to force someone to continue suffering for who knows how long.
That's intresting. So suicide is ok but homsexuality is wrong.

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by FootbalYouBet » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:18 pm

T-Bone wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:if it is against the law to force a person to die who does not want to

then it should also be against the law to force a person to live who does not want to. Exception for children

I demand the right to die when I want to, and I plead for people to be allowed to assist me if and when I can't do it myself.

It is barbaric cruelty to force someone to continue suffering for who knows how long.
That's intresting. So suicide is ok but homsexuality is wrong.
I was not speaking from a biblical point of view on this topic, only my own feelings.

However, I am not sure I can think of any place where it says in the bible that it is a sin to end your own life. Yet, I suspect that it might not be something God would approve of. Then again, it could be situational.

a large group of people are torturing someone to death, very painfully and very slowely. You are but one person in the bush. Do you shoot the victim in the head to end the suffering? Is it murder? Is it assisted suicide? Is it illegal? Would God disapprove? I say no to the first 3, and I don't beleive so on the last one.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by T-Bone » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:08 pm

FootbalYouBet wrote:I was not speaking from a biblical point of view on this topic, only my own feelings.

However, I am not sure I can think of any place where it says in the bible that it is a sin to end your own life. Yet, I suspect that it might not be something God would approve of. Then again, it could be situational.

a large group of people are torturing someone to death, very painfully and very slowely. You are but one person in the bush. Do you shoot the victim in the head to end the suffering? Is it murder? Is it assisted suicide? Is it illegal? Would God disapprove? I say no to the first 3, and I don't beleive so on the last one.
You might want to read this because It looks like God is not a big fan of suicide. Are you saying your opinion contradicts God's?

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by FootbalYouBet » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:59 pm

T-Bone wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:I was not speaking from a biblical point of view on this topic, only my own feelings.

However, I am not sure I can think of any place where it says in the bible that it is a sin to end your own life. Yet, I suspect that it might not be something God would approve of. Then again, it could be situational.

a large group of people are torturing someone to death, very painfully and very slowely. You are but one person in the bush. Do you shoot the victim in the head to end the suffering? Is it murder? Is it assisted suicide? Is it illegal? Would God disapprove? I say no to the first 3, and I don't beleive so on the last one.
You might want to read this because It looks like God is not a big fan of suicide. Are you saying your opinion contradicts God's?
I did not remember that verse,

as for the rest of the article, that is just one, or some peoples opinions, interpretation.

That verse alone simply questions the wisdom of dieing before your time, but does not name it a sin nor a commandmant from God not to do it. In fact, if you read and understand the 2 verses before, it is not conclusive that this is even talking about suicide. In fact, after reading the words below, it is clear to me that the auther of the bible answers column has taken the one verse out of context and used to help make his\her own point. They may have done this on purpose, or they may simply be mistaken

From BIBLE.ORG (i HAVE ENLARGED AND MADE BOLD THE ONE SENTENCE DOWN BELOW THAT MAKES MY INTERPRETATION OF THE VERSE QUITE CLEAR)

1. Wisdom provides humility (7:15-18).
In these first four verses, Solomon discusses one of the most prevalent questions of human history: Why do good people suffer and bad people prosper? In 7:15 he writes, “I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility;280 there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.”281The phrase “I have seen everything” is akin to the contemporary expression of disgust, “Now, I’ve seen it all.” Solomon is a bit miffed that there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between one’s goodness and one’s lifespan.282 We see this principle alive and well today. We see righteous people die abruptly, and we see wicked fools living for what seems too long. Think about it…Jesus lived to be 33 and Hugh Heffner seems as if he’s going to outlive all of us. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, does it?

It’s easy to agonize over these hazy areas of the faith, like those spots on a sparkling car window that simply won’t come clean. Yet, these hazy areas tell me that God is real, dynamic, and too great for my conception. His ways are higher than mine.283 If there were no hazy areas, Christianity would be too neat, too trite. If I can fully understand God’s thoughts, He would be no more God than I am. Others approach this theological puzzle (and others) with an ultimatum: solve it or God is not real. This is like approaching a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle and saying, “If I can’t assemble this in five minutes, I will deny that it’s a picture.” That’s unfair, isn’t it? It’s also irrational. Our inability to work out an answer reflects only on our limitations, not God’s.284 Therefore, it makes sense to trust our loving and powerful God even when He does not think and act like we might want Him to. After all, He sees the end from the beginning. With this in mind, today will you give the Lord whatever intellectual issues that you are struggling with? It’s as simple as saying, “God, I don’t understand what you are doing or why you are doing it, but you are God and I am not so I will trust You.”285Wise up by going low.

Since we can’t possibly understand God’s decisions, Solomon’s conclusion in 7:16-17 is, “Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise.286 Why should you ruin yourself? Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool.287 Why should you die before your time?” These verses have been terribly misunderstood. Some have dubbed these verses “the golden mean,” which suggests we should not be too righteous or too wicked. Rather, we should strike a balance and achieve a happy medium. Yet, if Solomon is telling us to be moderately godly, he is contradicting the Bible which clearly teaches us to seek righteousness and holiness with all that is within us.288 I believe, therefore, Solomon’s concern is not with godly character, but with godly character in one’s own eyes. His point is that we should not depend on our righteousness or wisdom to guarantee God’s blessing in our lives.289 In other words, if you are a particularly righteous person don’t be too confident that you will live to see your 120th birthday. The verb translated “ruin yourself” is better rendered to “be appalled, astounded.”290 Solomon is saying, “Don’t assume that God owes you anything for your righteousness.” If you do, you might be confounded or disappointed like the righteous person who dies at a young age.291

The truth is, no matter how righteous or wise we attempt to be we are still sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. The apostle Paul understood this. Early in his ministry, he called himself the least of the apostles. Later on he said he was the least of all Christians. Then he said he was the chief of sinners. The older he got, the more he saw of God, the lower he became in his own estimation.292 In the same vein, John Newton, the former slave trader and author of “Amazing Grace,” said, “When I get to heaven, I will be amazed at three things. I will be amazed at those I thought would be there who are not there, those I did not think would be there who are there, and the fact that I am there at all.”293

The Chinese are reported to have a saying, “The shoot that grows tall is the first to be cut.”294 Biblically and practically, it makes sense to be humble. There is just too much we don’t understand. There are too many questions, too many tragedies, and too much sin. The only solution is to wise up by going low. But what does this look like practically? It means you take a close look at how you think, speak, and act. When you think of Christian self-righteousness, you most likely think of a person who sees the faults of others, but is oblivious to his or her own condition. Tragically, this may be the most frequently used reason for not becoming a Christian. In the past, I used to dismiss this by saying, “There are hypocrites in every profession and sphere of life.” But now I agree with statements relating to hypocrisy among Christians. I will even acknowledge that I have been guilty of hypocrisy as well. I empathize with people who quote the common bumper sticker, “Jesus, save me from your followers.” Don’t get me wrong, we need to be authentically righteous, but we also need to be especially humble.

Not only is Solomon opposed to self-righteousness, he is also opposed to wickedness. Although we are sinful and will always have remains of hypocrisy and self-righteousness, we need to be careful not to use our sinfulness as an excuse to sin even more. The fact that we aren’t perfect should spur us on toward holiness, not toward moral compromise. It’s easy to see how this line of reasoning might work. “I’ve already told one lie. What difference will another make?” Or “I know I shouldn’t have used foul language, but why stop now?” All such reasoning is evil. Why compound your troubles by continuing to sin? When you’re in a hole, stop digging. If you can’t make things better, at least make sure you don’t make them worse. This applies to all of us because everyone struggles with sin to one degree or another. You don’t have to take another drink, you don’t have to cheat a second time, you don’t have to keep on swearing, and you don’t have to lose your temper over and over again. By the power of God, and with the help of a few good friends, you can stop the patterns of sin and replace them with habits of holiness.295

If we choose to disregard God’s Word and play the fool we may die before our time. The truth is, God does sometimes punish the wicked in this life. There have been times over the course of my life when I have wondered what would happen if I attempted to steer off a cliff while driving my car. I have thought to myself, “Would God send an angel to steer my car away from imminent danger? Would God Himself slam on the brakes before I drove off the cliff? Would He keep my steering wheel from turning in the direction of the cliff?” The answer to these questions is, “NO, NO, NO!” This is not to say that the Lord would not work a miracle, but the odds are against it. If I make a foolish decision, I may pay for it with my life. Young people, please don’t play the fool. One experiment with drugs could end your life. One sexual encounter could cost you dearly. One suicidal attempt could be your last. It’s not worth it. Live in light of eternity. Exercise wisdom and self-control. Wise up by going low.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Dave in Korea » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:26 am

I'm pretty sure the Catholic church goes so far as to refuse burial in consecrated ground to suicides as they (the Catholics, no the suicides) believe it's a sin . . . and a big one at that.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by T-Bone » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:52 am

FootbalYouBet wrote:I did not remember that verse,

as for the rest of the article, that is just one, or some peoples opinions, interpretation.

That verse alone simply questions the wisdom of dieing before your time, but does not name it a sin nor a commandmant from God not to do it. In fact, if you read and understand the 2 verses before, it is not conclusive that this is even talking about suicide. In fact, after reading the words below, it is clear to me that the auther of the bible answers column has taken the one verse out of context and used to help make his\her own point. They may have done this on purpose, or they may simply be mistaken

From BIBLE.ORG (i HAVE ENLARGED AND MADE BOLD THE ONE SENTENCE DOWN BELOW THAT MAKES MY INTERPRETATION OF THE VERSE QUITE CLEAR)

1. Wisdom provides humility (7:15-18).
In these first four verses, Solomon discusses one of the most prevalent questions of human history: Why do good people suffer and bad people prosper? In 7:15 he writes, “I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility;280 there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.”281The phrase “I have seen everything” is akin to the contemporary expression of disgust, “Now, I’ve seen it all.” Solomon is a bit miffed that there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between one’s goodness and one’s lifespan.282 We see this principle alive and well today. We see righteous people die abruptly, and we see wicked fools living for what seems too long. Think about it…Jesus lived to be 33 and Hugh Heffner seems as if he’s going to outlive all of us. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, does it?

It’s easy to agonize over these hazy areas of the faith, like those spots on a sparkling car window that simply won’t come clean. Yet, these hazy areas tell me that God is real, dynamic, and too great for my conception. His ways are higher than mine.283 If there were no hazy areas, Christianity would be too neat, too trite. If I can fully understand God’s thoughts, He would be no more God than I am. Others approach this theological puzzle (and others) with an ultimatum: solve it or God is not real. This is like approaching a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle and saying, “If I can’t assemble this in five minutes, I will deny that it’s a picture.” That’s unfair, isn’t it? It’s also irrational. Our inability to work out an answer reflects only on our limitations, not God’s.284 Therefore, it makes sense to trust our loving and powerful God even when He does not think and act like we might want Him to. After all, He sees the end from the beginning. With this in mind, today will you give the Lord whatever intellectual issues that you are struggling with? It’s as simple as saying, “God, I don’t understand what you are doing or why you are doing it, but you are God and I am not so I will trust You.”285Wise up by going low.

Since we can’t possibly understand God’s decisions, Solomon’s conclusion in 7:16-17 is, “Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise.286 Why should you ruin yourself? Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool.287 Why should you die before your time?” These verses have been terribly misunderstood. Some have dubbed these verses “the golden mean,” which suggests we should not be too righteous or too wicked. Rather, we should strike a balance and achieve a happy medium. Yet, if Solomon is telling us to be moderately godly, he is contradicting the Bible which clearly teaches us to seek righteousness and holiness with all that is within us.288 I believe, therefore, Solomon’s concern is not with godly character, but with godly character in one’s own eyes. His point is that we should not depend on our righteousness or wisdom to guarantee God’s blessing in our lives.289 In other words, if you are a particularly righteous person don’t be too confident that you will live to see your 120th birthday. The verb translated “ruin yourself” is better rendered to “be appalled, astounded.”290 Solomon is saying, “Don’t assume that God owes you anything for your righteousness.” If you do, you might be confounded or disappointed like the righteous person who dies at a young age.291

The truth is, no matter how righteous or wise we attempt to be we are still sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. The apostle Paul understood this. Early in his ministry, he called himself the least of the apostles. Later on he said he was the least of all Christians. Then he said he was the chief of sinners. The older he got, the more he saw of God, the lower he became in his own estimation.292 In the same vein, John Newton, the former slave trader and author of “Amazing Grace,” said, “When I get to heaven, I will be amazed at three things. I will be amazed at those I thought would be there who are not there, those I did not think would be there who are there, and the fact that I am there at all.”293

The Chinese are reported to have a saying, “The shoot that grows tall is the first to be cut.”294 Biblically and practically, it makes sense to be humble. There is just too much we don’t understand. There are too many questions, too many tragedies, and too much sin. The only solution is to wise up by going low. But what does this look like practically? It means you take a close look at how you think, speak, and act. When you think of Christian self-righteousness, you most likely think of a person who sees the faults of others, but is oblivious to his or her own condition. Tragically, this may be the most frequently used reason for not becoming a Christian. In the past, I used to dismiss this by saying, “There are hypocrites in every profession and sphere of life.” But now I agree with statements relating to hypocrisy among Christians. I will even acknowledge that I have been guilty of hypocrisy as well. I empathize with people who quote the common bumper sticker, “Jesus, save me from your followers.” Don’t get me wrong, we need to be authentically righteous, but we also need to be especially humble.

Not only is Solomon opposed to self-righteousness, he is also opposed to wickedness. Although we are sinful and will always have remains of hypocrisy and self-righteousness, we need to be careful not to use our sinfulness as an excuse to sin even more. The fact that we aren’t perfect should spur us on toward holiness, not toward moral compromise. It’s easy to see how this line of reasoning might work. “I’ve already told one lie. What difference will another make?” Or “I know I shouldn’t have used foul language, but why stop now?” All such reasoning is evil. Why compound your troubles by continuing to sin? When you’re in a hole, stop digging. If you can’t make things better, at least make sure you don’t make them worse. This applies to all of us because everyone struggles with sin to one degree or another. You don’t have to take another drink, you don’t have to cheat a second time, you don’t have to keep on swearing, and you don’t have to lose your temper over and over again. By the power of God, and with the help of a few good friends, you can stop the patterns of sin and replace them with habits of holiness.295

If we choose to disregard God’s Word and play the fool we may die before our time. The truth is, God does sometimes punish the wicked in this life. There have been times over the course of my life when I have wondered what would happen if I attempted to steer off a cliff while driving my car. I have thought to myself, “Would God send an angel to steer my car away from imminent danger? Would God Himself slam on the brakes before I drove off the cliff? Would He keep my steering wheel from turning in the direction of the cliff?” The answer to these questions is, “NO, NO, NO!” This is not to say that the Lord would not work a miracle, but the odds are against it. If I make a foolish decision, I may pay for it with my life. Young people, please don’t play the fool. One experiment with drugs could end your life. One sexual encounter could cost you dearly. One suicidal attempt could be your last. It’s not worth it. Live in light of eternity. Exercise wisdom and self-control. Wise up by going low.
Thanks, that really clears things up. :? Please see here.

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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Sir Purrcival » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:22 am

Actually this really supports a great deal about I have always believed to be true.

It isn't the destination that is important, it is the journey we take to get there. Holiness and righteousness is never a state ever truly achieved. The moment you think you have it is the moment you stop seeking and that is the premature end that we must avoid. It isn't about breathing, walking and talking, it is about learning, growing, developing. That journey must carry on. That is what we mean by being humble, never presuming too much, accepting that there is always something more to learn. One shouldn't assume that corporeal death means the end of that journey because there is in fact much about the universe that we don't understand. By the same token, we shouldn't make assumptions that if someone chooses to shorten their life, that it in someway impairs that journey.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by FootbalYouBet » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:09 pm

Sir Purrcival wrote:Actually this really supports a great deal about I have always believed to be true.

It isn't the destination that is important, it is the journey we take to get there. Holiness and righteousness is never a state ever truly achieved. The moment you think you have it is the moment you stop seeking and that is the premature end that we must avoid. It isn't about breathing, walking and talking, it is about learning, growing, developing. That journey must carry on. That is what we mean by being humble, never presuming too much, accepting that there is always something more to learn. One shouldn't assume that corporeal death means the end of that journey because there is in fact much about the universe that we don't understand. By the same token, we shouldn't make assumptions that if someone chooses to shorten their life, that it in someway impairs that journey.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by cossack » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:47 am

FootbalYouBet wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:I was not speaking from a biblical point of view on this topic, only my own feelings.

However, I am not sure I can think of any place where it says in the bible that it is a sin to end your own life. Yet, I suspect that it might not be something God would approve of. Then again, it could be situational.

a large group of people are torturing someone to death, very painfully and very slowely. You are but one person in the bush. Do you shoot the victim in the head to end the suffering? Is it murder? Is it assisted suicide? Is it illegal? Would God disapprove? I say no to the first 3, and I don't beleive so on the last one.
You might want to read this because It looks like God is not a big fan of suicide. Are you saying your opinion contradicts God's?
I did not remember that verse,

as for the rest of the article, that is just one, or some peoples opinions, interpretation.

That verse alone simply questions the wisdom of dieing before your time, but does not name it a sin nor a commandmant from God not to do it. In fact, if you read and understand the 2 verses before, it is not conclusive that this is even talking about suicide. In fact, after reading the words below, it is clear to me that the auther of the bible answers column has taken the one verse out of context and used to help make his\her own point. They may have done this on purpose, or they may simply be mistaken

From BIBLE.ORG (i HAVE ENLARGED AND MADE BOLD THE ONE SENTENCE DOWN BELOW THAT MAKES MY INTERPRETATION OF THE VERSE QUITE CLEAR)

1. Wisdom provides humility (7:15-18).
In these first four verses, Solomon discusses one of the most prevalent questions of human history: Why do good people suffer and bad people prosper? In 7:15 he writes, “I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility;280 there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.”281The phrase “I have seen everything” is akin to the contemporary expression of disgust, “Now, I’ve seen it all.” Solomon is a bit miffed that there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between one’s goodness and one’s lifespan.282 We see this principle alive and well today. We see righteous people die abruptly, and we see wicked fools living for what seems too long. Think about it…Jesus lived to be 33 and Hugh Heffner seems as if he’s going to outlive all of us. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, does it?

It’s easy to agonize over these hazy areas of the faith, like those spots on a sparkling car window that simply won’t come clean. Yet, these hazy areas tell me that God is real, dynamic, and too great for my conception. His ways are higher than mine.283 If there were no hazy areas, Christianity would be too neat, too trite. If I can fully understand God’s thoughts, He would be no more God than I am. Others approach this theological puzzle (and others) with an ultimatum: solve it or God is not real. This is like approaching a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle and saying, “If I can’t assemble this in five minutes, I will deny that it’s a picture.” That’s unfair, isn’t it? It’s also irrational. Our inability to work out an answer reflects only on our limitations, not God’s.284 Therefore, it makes sense to trust our loving and powerful God even when He does not think and act like we might want Him to. After all, He sees the end from the beginning. With this in mind, today will you give the Lord whatever intellectual issues that you are struggling with? It’s as simple as saying, “God, I don’t understand what you are doing or why you are doing it, but you are God and I am not so I will trust You.”285Wise up by going low.

Since we can’t possibly understand God’s decisions, Solomon’s conclusion in 7:16-17 is, “Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise.286 Why should you ruin yourself? Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool.287 Why should you die before your time?” These verses have been terribly misunderstood. Some have dubbed these verses “the golden mean,” which suggests we should not be too righteous or too wicked. Rather, we should strike a balance and achieve a happy medium. Yet, if Solomon is telling us to be moderately godly, he is contradicting the Bible which clearly teaches us to seek righteousness and holiness with all that is within us.288 I believe, therefore, Solomon’s concern is not with godly character, but with godly character in one’s own eyes. His point is that we should not depend on our righteousness or wisdom to guarantee God’s blessing in our lives.289 In other words, if you are a particularly righteous person don’t be too confident that you will live to see your 120th birthday. The verb translated “ruin yourself” is better rendered to “be appalled, astounded.”290 Solomon is saying, “Don’t assume that God owes you anything for your righteousness.” If you do, you might be confounded or disappointed like the righteous person who dies at a young age.291

The truth is, no matter how righteous or wise we attempt to be we are still sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. The apostle Paul understood this. Early in his ministry, he called himself the least of the apostles. Later on he said he was the least of all Christians. Then he said he was the chief of sinners. The older he got, the more he saw of God, the lower he became in his own estimation.292 In the same vein, John Newton, the former slave trader and author of “Amazing Grace,” said, “When I get to heaven, I will be amazed at three things. I will be amazed at those I thought would be there who are not there, those I did not think would be there who are there, and the fact that I am there at all.”293

The Chinese are reported to have a saying, “The shoot that grows tall is the first to be cut.”294 Biblically and practically, it makes sense to be humble. There is just too much we don’t understand. There are too many questions, too many tragedies, and too much sin. The only solution is to wise up by going low. But what does this look like practically? It means you take a close look at how you think, speak, and act. When you think of Christian self-righteousness, you most likely think of a person who sees the faults of others, but is oblivious to his or her own condition. Tragically, this may be the most frequently used reason for not becoming a Christian. In the past, I used to dismiss this by saying, “There are hypocrites in every profession and sphere of life.” But now I agree with statements relating to hypocrisy among Christians. I will even acknowledge that I have been guilty of hypocrisy as well. I empathize with people who quote the common bumper sticker, “Jesus, save me from your followers.” Don’t get me wrong, we need to be authentically righteous, but we also need to be especially humble.

Not only is Solomon opposed to self-righteousness, he is also opposed to wickedness. Although we are sinful and will always have remains of hypocrisy and self-righteousness, we need to be careful not to use our sinfulness as an excuse to sin even more. The fact that we aren’t perfect should spur us on toward holiness, not toward moral compromise. It’s easy to see how this line of reasoning might work. “I’ve already told one lie. What difference will another make?” Or “I know I shouldn’t have used foul language, but why stop now?” All such reasoning is evil. Why compound your troubles by continuing to sin? When you’re in a hole, stop digging. If you can’t make things better, at least make sure you don’t make them worse. This applies to all of us because everyone struggles with sin to one degree or another. You don’t have to take another drink, you don’t have to cheat a second time, you don’t have to keep on swearing, and you don’t have to lose your temper over and over again. By the power of God, and with the help of a few good friends, you can stop the patterns of sin and replace them with habits of holiness.295

If we choose to disregard God’s Word and play the fool we may die before our time. The truth is, God does sometimes punish the wicked in this life. There have been times over the course of my life when I have wondered what would happen if I attempted to steer off a cliff while driving my car. I have thought to myself, “Would God send an angel to steer my car away from imminent danger? Would God Himself slam on the brakes before I drove off the cliff? Would He keep my steering wheel from turning in the direction of the cliff?” The answer to these questions is, “NO, NO, NO!” This is not to say that the Lord would not work a miracle, but the odds are against it. If I make a foolish decision, I may pay for it with my life. Young people, please don’t play the fool. One experiment with drugs could end your life. One sexual encounter could cost you dearly. One suicidal attempt could be your last. It’s not worth it. Live in light of eternity. Exercise wisdom and self-control. Wise up by going low.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by FootbalYouBet » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:58 am

cossack wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:
T-Bone wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote:I was not speaking from a biblical point of view on this topic, only my own feelings.

However, I am not sure I can think of any place where it says in the bible that it is a sin to end your own life. Yet, I suspect that it might not be something God would approve of. Then again, it could be situational.

a large group of people are torturing someone to death, very painfully and very slowely. You are but one person in the bush. Do you shoot the victim in the head to end the suffering? Is it murder? Is it assisted suicide? Is it illegal? Would God disapprove? I say no to the first 3, and I don't beleive so on the last one.
You might want to read this because It looks like God is not a big fan of suicide. Are you saying your opinion contradicts God's?
I did not remember that verse,

as for the rest of the article, that is just one, or some peoples opinions, interpretation.

That verse alone simply questions the wisdom of dieing before your time, but does not name it a sin nor a commandmant from God not to do it. In fact, if you read and understand the 2 verses before, it is not conclusive that this is even talking about suicide. In fact, after reading the words below, it is clear to me that the auther of the bible answers column has taken the one verse out of context and used to help make his\her own point. They may have done this on purpose, or they may simply be mistaken

From BIBLE.ORG (i HAVE ENLARGED AND MADE BOLD THE ONE SENTENCE DOWN BELOW THAT MAKES MY INTERPRETATION OF THE VERSE QUITE CLEAR)

1. Wisdom provides humility (7:15-18).
In these first four verses, Solomon discusses one of the most prevalent questions of human history: Why do good people suffer and bad people prosper? In 7:15 he writes, “I have seen everything during my lifetime of futility;280 there is a righteous man who perishes in his righteousness and there is a wicked man who prolongs his life in his wickedness.”281The phrase “I have seen everything” is akin to the contemporary expression of disgust, “Now, I’ve seen it all.” Solomon is a bit miffed that there doesn’t seem to be any correlation between one’s goodness and one’s lifespan.282 We see this principle alive and well today. We see righteous people die abruptly, and we see wicked fools living for what seems too long. Think about it…Jesus lived to be 33 and Hugh Heffner seems as if he’s going to outlive all of us. That doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, does it?

It’s easy to agonize over these hazy areas of the faith, like those spots on a sparkling car window that simply won’t come clean. Yet, these hazy areas tell me that God is real, dynamic, and too great for my conception. His ways are higher than mine.283 If there were no hazy areas, Christianity would be too neat, too trite. If I can fully understand God’s thoughts, He would be no more God than I am. Others approach this theological puzzle (and others) with an ultimatum: solve it or God is not real. This is like approaching a 10,000 piece jigsaw puzzle and saying, “If I can’t assemble this in five minutes, I will deny that it’s a picture.” That’s unfair, isn’t it? It’s also irrational. Our inability to work out an answer reflects only on our limitations, not God’s.284 Therefore, it makes sense to trust our loving and powerful God even when He does not think and act like we might want Him to. After all, He sees the end from the beginning. With this in mind, today will you give the Lord whatever intellectual issues that you are struggling with? It’s as simple as saying, “God, I don’t understand what you are doing or why you are doing it, but you are God and I am not so I will trust You.”285Wise up by going low.

Since we can’t possibly understand God’s decisions, Solomon’s conclusion in 7:16-17 is, “Do not be excessively righteous and do not be overly wise.286 Why should you ruin yourself? Do not be excessively wicked and do not be a fool.287 Why should you die before your time?” These verses have been terribly misunderstood. Some have dubbed these verses “the golden mean,” which suggests we should not be too righteous or too wicked. Rather, we should strike a balance and achieve a happy medium. Yet, if Solomon is telling us to be moderately godly, he is contradicting the Bible which clearly teaches us to seek righteousness and holiness with all that is within us.288 I believe, therefore, Solomon’s concern is not with godly character, but with godly character in one’s own eyes. His point is that we should not depend on our righteousness or wisdom to guarantee God’s blessing in our lives.289 In other words, if you are a particularly righteous person don’t be too confident that you will live to see your 120th birthday. The verb translated “ruin yourself” is better rendered to “be appalled, astounded.”290 Solomon is saying, “Don’t assume that God owes you anything for your righteousness.” If you do, you might be confounded or disappointed like the righteous person who dies at a young age.291

The truth is, no matter how righteous or wise we attempt to be we are still sinners in need of God’s mercy and grace. The apostle Paul understood this. Early in his ministry, he called himself the least of the apostles. Later on he said he was the least of all Christians. Then he said he was the chief of sinners. The older he got, the more he saw of God, the lower he became in his own estimation.292 In the same vein, John Newton, the former slave trader and author of “Amazing Grace,” said, “When I get to heaven, I will be amazed at three things. I will be amazed at those I thought would be there who are not there, those I did not think would be there who are there, and the fact that I am there at all.”293

The Chinese are reported to have a saying, “The shoot that grows tall is the first to be cut.”294 Biblically and practically, it makes sense to be humble. There is just too much we don’t understand. There are too many questions, too many tragedies, and too much sin. The only solution is to wise up by going low. But what does this look like practically? It means you take a close look at how you think, speak, and act. When you think of Christian self-righteousness, you most likely think of a person who sees the faults of others, but is oblivious to his or her own condition. Tragically, this may be the most frequently used reason for not becoming a Christian. In the past, I used to dismiss this by saying, “There are hypocrites in every profession and sphere of life.” But now I agree with statements relating to hypocrisy among Christians. I will even acknowledge that I have been guilty of hypocrisy as well. I empathize with people who quote the common bumper sticker, “Jesus, save me from your followers.” Don’t get me wrong, we need to be authentically righteous, but we also need to be especially humble.

Not only is Solomon opposed to self-righteousness, he is also opposed to wickedness. Although we are sinful and will always have remains of hypocrisy and self-righteousness, we need to be careful not to use our sinfulness as an excuse to sin even more. The fact that we aren’t perfect should spur us on toward holiness, not toward moral compromise. It’s easy to see how this line of reasoning might work. “I’ve already told one lie. What difference will another make?” Or “I know I shouldn’t have used foul language, but why stop now?” All such reasoning is evil. Why compound your troubles by continuing to sin? When you’re in a hole, stop digging. If you can’t make things better, at least make sure you don’t make them worse. This applies to all of us because everyone struggles with sin to one degree or another. You don’t have to take another drink, you don’t have to cheat a second time, you don’t have to keep on swearing, and you don’t have to lose your temper over and over again. By the power of God, and with the help of a few good friends, you can stop the patterns of sin and replace them with habits of holiness.295

If we choose to disregard God’s Word and play the fool we may die before our time. The truth is, God does sometimes punish the wicked in this life. There have been times over the course of my life when I have wondered what would happen if I attempted to steer off a cliff while driving my car. I have thought to myself, “Would God send an angel to steer my car away from imminent danger? Would God Himself slam on the brakes before I drove off the cliff? Would He keep my steering wheel from turning in the direction of the cliff?” The answer to these questions is, “NO, NO, NO!” This is not to say that the Lord would not work a miracle, but the odds are against it. If I make a foolish decision, I may pay for it with my life. Young people, please don’t play the fool. One experiment with drugs could end your life. One sexual encounter could cost you dearly. One suicidal attempt could be your last. It’s not worth it. Live in light of eternity. Exercise wisdom and self-control. Wise up by going low.
If you want to kill yourself, I'm okay with it.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by B-17 » Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:05 pm

I appreciate that the debate is staying fairly intellectual and respectful, with the occasional dose of much needed humour where needed.

I want to make one point, though. Someone made the following suggestion:
"Where does the state come in? In my view, legal suicide should probably be made by application to the state. The reasons need to be submitted, people inteviewed, have that all reviewed by a multidiciplinary board and some kind of decision rendered."

I work in gov't. And I've worked in hospitals/hospital. Trust me, we're not the ones wise enough to make these kinds of decisions. Now, don't get me wrong. There are very skilled and ethical people who do sit on "life and death" panels e.g. deciding priority for organ donations -- deciding who lives and who dies, because there won't be organs in time for everyone who needs the new heart or new kidney or new liver before their own fails. Not an easy task. And during disasters, people who have to triage who can be saved and who can't, and have to live with their decisions.

In this world, I just don't think there is process that is truly infallible enough to condone suicide. Plus, given that there are so many times where life just can't be saved, do we really want to create another process that would make it easier to remove life? Quite frankly, I think the means test that we currently have is simple enough. If you truly wish to remove yourself, and have the sanity and capability and clear headedness to do so, you will find a way. And you'll find a way that will most likely be effective, quick and reasonably painless. And if you aren't able to do this, meaning you don't attempt or attempt and fail (e.g. by not taking enough pills), you probably weren't fully looking to kills yourself. Far better that we invest resources in crisis counselling, mental health services, etc that prevent or intervene quickly when someone gets to the point of despair and help them out of it. The "clear headed, simply had enough, ready for a change" suicide originally put forth in the first post is really the exception, rather than the rule.

Once this thread has run its course, we can start the euthanasia thread, and the aspect of the ethics of actively assisting someone to die who is terminally ill or suffering. Related, but different.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by Sir Purrcival » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:39 am

Yep, that was mine, and I agree, it would be an imperfect solution but as you say, it is the very solution that is often used for a host of thorny problems. There is no perfect answer to this issue but at least with some kind of sanctioning process in place, it would provide a form of detached 3rd person perspective on such decisions. Something that I tend to believe is sorely required when grappling with a choice of this gravity. As you say, the determined person will probably go ahead anyway but consider this for a moment. Insurance companies often provide exclusions to the provisions of benefits in the case of suicides. They do this even if on balance, the decision to commit suicide appears not only reasonable but quite rational. Personally, I would rather see an imperfect tribunal system on the issue than the "not under any circumstances" approach that we currently employ. Just because someone applies and is granted permission doesn't obligate them to follow through. It would however provide some measure of control to those who are facing difficult circumstances in their immediate future. If, for example, I was diagnosed with some form of Alzheimer's, I would be strongly inclined to take what time I had, make my preparations, knowing that my actions wouldn't unnecessarily impose hardship on my loved ones and then at a time of choosing end my life on my own terms rather than lose all that which makes me "me". Right now, as things currently stand, I don't have that right, my family doesn't have those protections and that seems wrong. It is not the solution that everyone would want or even the majority but it is a better solution that what we have right now which in essence makes the last act that some people take in this world a "criminal" one. Ending ones life isn't always an irrational act. We don't classify people who have knowingly and willingly sacrificed their lives in acts of heroism as anything but noble and courageous. Why should our society be so certain as to confer a negative value judgment on those who have other reasons but which may be just as sane and logical.
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Re: Are You OK With Killing Yourself?

Post by ping » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:03 pm

cfldave wrote:Is it my business (or the state's for that Matter) if you decide to kill yourself?
people that want to kill themselves are not in the mind set to make a decision like that!
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