Honest expansion

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VICIOUSCIRCLE
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Honest expansion

Post by VICIOUSCIRCLE » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:59 pm

Ok I puposely have laid off posting here and Lionbackers due to some folks lack of vision when I told of the upcoming 330 million dollar (at that time) renos to BC Place and the fact that the Lions were going to play in a temporary facility. All I head was your nuts and never, voila!!! I could go find the thread to prove my point but I have better things to do with my time. Back then when I heard this I did the research into temp stadiums and also forwarded my info to the league, don't worry I'm not taking credit for the idea they were already on it. I found out that the temp structures unlike Empire Field can have the cocessions and bathrooms built in to the structure and are guaranteed to last 10 years. There are many configs and also roof designs, but just so you know the basic horseshoe config alone costs $4 million to buy, now if you want seats like Empire has your talking $6 Million, again this is just to purchase the structure. Roofs or partial covers cost roughly about the same depending on design. So knowing these hard costs you can put one for $12 million structure cost, not including land costs anywhere in the country. If the 3 levels of government can work together on the land deals and parking, then expansion just got alot easier. You could have a team in Halifax or Moncton in a temp stadium for 10 years to prove itself and meanwhile get a read stadiun built or just bulid an new temp one. The only drawback is hosting Grey Cups, these venues can't get much extra seating per se. I know the league is looking at this very closely for future expaqnsion, so thoughts? Where to go, cities?
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by Dave in Korea » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:42 pm

Good to see you back posting here. :beer:

At this point, it looks like Moncton is the front runner for expansion after Ottawa, but it's hard to say how serious they really are about it at this stage. However, they are set to host more regular season games in the coming years, so hopefully that will lead to a push for a new stadium like you describe.

A lot of people are confident that Quebec City could be home to a successful CFL team, but there have been very few concrete news reports about people actually interested in investing money toward one.

I suspect though, that once Ottawa returns and is successful and the league gets a new, more lucrative TV deal (Bob Young seems to think it's coming), further expansion might be looked at more seriously by investors.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by ping » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:20 am

Dave in Korea wrote:Good to see you back posting here. :beer:

At this point, it looks like Moncton is the front runner for expansion after Ottawa, but it's hard to say how serious they really are about it at this stage. However, they are set to host more regular season games in the coming years, so hopefully that will lead to a push for a new stadium like you describe.

A lot of people are confident that Quebec City could be home to a successful CFL team, but there have been very few concrete news reports about people actually interested in investing money toward one.

I suspect though, that once Ottawa returns and is successful and the league gets a new, more lucrative TV deal (Bob Young seems to think it's coming), further expansion might be looked at more seriously by investors.

He should put staduims up in Kamloops and Re deer !
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by Cool » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:10 am

VICIOUSCIRCLE wrote:Ok I puposely have laid off posting here and Lionbackers due to some folks lack of vision when I told of the upcoming 330 million dollar (at that time) renos to BC Place and the fact that the Lions were going to play in a temporary facility. All I head was your nuts and never, voila!!! I could go find the thread to prove my point but I have better things to do with my time. Back then when I heard this I did the research into temp stadiums and also forwarded my info to the league, don't worry I'm not taking credit for the idea they were already on it. I found out that the temp structures unlike Empire Field can have the cocessions and bathrooms built in to the structure and are guaranteed to last 10 years. There are many configs and also roof designs, but just so you know the basic horseshoe config alone costs $4 million to buy, now if you want seats like Empire has your talking $6 Million, again this is just to purchase the structure. Roofs or partial covers cost roughly about the same depending on design. So knowing these hard costs you can put one for $12 million structure cost, not including land costs anywhere in the country. If the 3 levels of government can work together on the land deals and parking, then expansion just got alot easier. You could have a team in Halifax or Moncton in a temp stadium for 10 years to prove itself and meanwhile get a read stadiun built or just bulid an new temp one. The only drawback is hosting Grey Cups, these venues can't get much extra seating per se. I know the league is looking at this very closely for future expaqnsion, so thoughts? Where to go, cities?
Temporary stadiums that could last five years in new markets (while the permanent one get built), does have merit.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by VICIOUSCIRCLE » Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:28 am

The inside scoop I'm hearing is a 20 year plan of growth to 16 teams that focusses on the following cities:

All Population figures are from 2006

Victoria - Metro Area 330,000
Kelowna - 360,000 (Inc. Kamloops, Penticton, Vernon & Merritt)
Saskatoon - Metro area 257,000 (Regina Metro Area Pop is only 195,000)
London - Metro Area 457,000
Quebec City - Metro Area 683,000
Moncton - Metro Area 126,000
Halifax - Metro Area 418,000
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by VICIOUSCIRCLE » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:54 am

Attached is a concept pic of a temp stadium, this is from the same company that built Empire Field.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by FootbalYouBet » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:10 pm

VICIOUSCIRCLE wrote:The inside scoop I'm hearing is a 20 year plan of growth to 16 teams that focusses on the following cities:

All Population figures are from 2006

Victoria - Metro Area 330,000
Kelowna - 360,000 (Inc. Kamloops, Penticton, Vernon & Merritt)
Saskatoon - Metro area 257,000 (Regina Metro Area Pop is only 195,000)
London - Metro Area 457,000
Quebec City - Metro Area 683,000
Moncton - Metro Area 126,000
Halifax - Metro Area 418,000
I gotta qustion your inside source.

in the last 20 yrs, canada's population increased by about 25%. So if that continues for the next 20 yrs, then we are looking at doubling the number of teams with only 25% increase in population. I dont think so. I would say, 10-12 viable stable teams at most.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by VICIOUSCIRCLE » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:02 pm

Wow, what most seem to missing is the with the exception of Moncton each of those proposed cities have the population to support a team today!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And that this is a 20 year plan so in 2030 we would have a 16 team league!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by fozzy » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:32 pm

yes, those cities may have the population but do they have the interest level?

there are junior teams in Victoria, Kelowna, Saskatoon and London who draw anywhere from 500 to 2000 fans on a regular basis. no, it's not professional football but in my experience it's still a very entertaining level of play. if the fans don't flock to those teams already for a measly 15 bucks are they going to shell out $50+ for a professional team?

i don't see it. population isn't everything.

also, alot of teams have a larger, more provincial reach than just the city they play in. take a look at the Roughriders...the whole province practically shuts down on game day. so again, just because one city has a population over 300 thou doesn't mean they have the ability to support an expensive professional football team. unless they have a owner with deep pockets who doesn't care if he/she loses money.

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Re: Honest expansion

Post by Dave in Korea » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:46 pm

I'd love to see the league get to 12 teams within 10 years or so. 16 teams seems like a bit of a stretch at this point, but 20 years is a long time, who knows how things might change.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by Hugoagogo » Fri Jan 28, 2011 8:30 pm

Victoria wouldn't draw 20k a game if tix were 20 bucks a piece. Despite the population difference, Nanaimo has a better chance of supporting a CFL team - and that isn't going to happen. I love your positive outlook, but there's a ton of smoke being blown up orifices here unless you can validate your CFL inside information - which, no offense, I will be surprised if you could.
The CFL (especially with Cohon in charge) has always stated a very cautious approach to expansion. We first need to solidify the franchises in current cities. Marketing objectives will not benefit with a Toronto - Kelowna game in Rogers. I can see the temp stadium proposal as a solution between old/new stadium builds, but that's about it. Sorry, not gonna happen... you can call me negative - I prefer realistic :pass:
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by iso_55 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:37 pm

[quote="fozzy"]yes, those cities may have the population but do they have the interest level?

there are junior teams in Victoria, Kelowna, Saskatoon and London who draw anywhere from 500 to 2000 fans on a regular basis. no, it's not professional football but in my experience it's still a very entertaining level of play. if the fans don't flock to those teams already for a measly 15 bucks are they going to shell out $50+ for a professional team? [quote="fozzy"]

Come to a Winnipeg Rifles home game. Or a Calgary Colts game at McMahon. Come to an Edmonton Huskies or Wildcats game at Clarke Park & then see if you'll think the same. My son played junior football for the Rifles & if they got 200 fans at Canad Inns when he played there, it was a big crowd. Same in Calgary & Edmonton. Saying a city can't support professional football if they don't support junior football is ludicrous.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by iso_55 » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:40 pm

There are only 3 or 4 markets worth considering in this country & if we were able to successfully expand into them that would be it for expansion for half a century, maybe more.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by Rids » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:58 pm

FootbalYouBet wrote: I gotta qustion your inside source.

in the last 20 yrs, canada's population increased by about 25%. So if that continues for the next 20 yrs, then we are looking at doubling the number of teams with only 25% increase in population. I dont think so. I would say, 10-12 viable stable teams at most.
Except you're not taking into account that in the last 20 years the CFL didn't increase by 25% (minus the little blip of the US Expansion). Same with the 20 years before that, and before that, and before that.

Truly we should be at 12 or 14 teams right now and looking to complete the jump to 16. Facilities have been the downfall to the growth of Canadian football since the 40s.
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Re: Honest expansion

Post by FootbalYouBet » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:43 pm

Rids wrote:
FootbalYouBet wrote: I gotta qustion your inside source.

in the last 20 yrs, canada's population increased by about 25%. So if that continues for the next 20 yrs, then we are looking at doubling the number of teams with only 25% increase in population. I dont think so. I would say, 10-12 viable stable teams at most.
Except you're not taking into account that in the last 20 years the CFL didn't increase by 25% (minus the little blip of the US Expansion). Same with the 20 years before that, and before that, and before that.

Truly we should be at 12 or 14 teams right now and looking to complete the jump to 16. Facilities have been the downfall to the growth of Canadian football since the 40s.
during the last 40 yrs, due to the dollar affecting what import talent we could get, along with the rise of the NFL machine and increased media exposure to the CFL, the CFL has endured many a crisis. Most of the die hard fans of 30 - 40 yrs ago are no longer with us and are not being easily replaced with younger fans. As our aging population thins out, who will carry the ball. So far, it looks to be a much smaller percentage of the population than it was 40 yrs ago.
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