Argos - Bills protest video-or tee shirt sale? (Bills in TO)

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by cossack » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:54 pm

DanoT wrote:It just occured to me that this whole Bills play in Toronto group of games is a great deal for Buffalo season ticket holders. They don't have to pay for the pre-season games in TO and the regular season games in TO won't be blacked out in Buffalo regardless of whether there is a sellout or not.
If there is no sellout in TO, then the game will be blacked out in TO only, according to NFL rules.
I don't quite understand what a great deal it is for Bill's season ticket holders to watch a home game on TV. Don't they become season ticket holders to watch games in person?

There is no chance that the games won't be a sell out (on paper). Ted Rogers would buy every single ticket to make sure that didn't happen.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by DanoT » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:06 pm

The Bills St holders can still go to TO for the games if they want or they can save by not having to spend $ on pre season games. I guess it only works for the "casual" St fan who isn't upset if he misses only one regular season game, gets to watch on it TV guaranteed and saves a bunch of $.

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by argolio » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:19 pm

DanoT wrote:If there is no sellout in TO, then the game will be blacked out in TO only, according to NFL rules.
That's why the Bills and the Toronto backers of this game demanded and got the NFL to schedule Miami for the first regular season game. Miami is one of the biggest rivals of the Bills, so fans from the Buffalo area will have extra incentive to make the trip to Toronto. In addition, the Dolphins, even as crappy as they have been recently, are still one of the most popular teams among Toronto-area NFL fans.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:39 am

cossack wrote:
Ron wrote:
cossack wrote:
Ron wrote:
Randy Brule wrote:I can't believe you won't get the same seats as you have for Argo tickets. What a joke...
As you can see by Dano's post. Bills fans get first dibs so obviously they might take gcg's Argo seat location before he gets a chance. (gcg is in prime cushy seat territory)

Seriously. Did anyone really think Argo fans would (or should) get ahead of Bills fans in the ticket line??????
You're right again Ron. Getting Argo season ticket holders to pay outrageous prices, and then treating them like second class citizens in their own stadium is great marketing. :lol:
1. Not their own stadium

2. This is an NFL Bills game ... not an Argo game

3. Nobody is "getting" them to do anything
I understand that the next phase of the marketing plan involves the first 10,000 Argo season ticket holders who have signed up get a free kick in the groin from Paul Godfrey. :rotf:
And Ron will say that's a good thing. And volunteer to be first in line since he then will get to meet his Idol Godfrey in person. :tease: :wink:
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:42 am

Ron wrote: Seriously. Did anyone really think Argo fans would (or should) get ahead of Bills fans in the ticket line??????

From what I've read all along it sure sounded like Argo ST holders WOULD get first dibs on seats. That has been the central theme of their whole ad campaign.

Explain this then:
Argos homepage wrote:Toronto – Following today’s announcement from Buffalo Bills Toronto Series organizers that demand from football fans registered for the chance to purchase tickets to the upcoming NFL Bills games in Toronto has now exceeded the 100,000 ticket mark, the Toronto Argonauts Football Club would like to remind fans that new and renewed 2008 Toronto Argonauts season ticket holders will receive guaranteed and priority access to 20,000 Bills’ tickets.

As an added value for Argos subscribers, season ticket holders are able to opt in to secure seats to the Bills games and will have first choice of the best available seats, ahead of the general public. Members of the public will enter an on-line registration. A random draw will be used to determine which football fans will have the opportunity to purchase tickets. Argos season ticket holders can avoid the lottery and get the complete Toronto football experience – the Argos AND the Bills.

The window for Argos season ticket holders to secure seats to the Bills in Toronto closes on April 24.
Sure reads to me like GCG should have been able to get the seats he wants (PRIORITY ACCESS....FIRST CHOICE), and not the nosebleeds he'll probably get stuck with.

So then...if they've reserved whole blocks of the best seats for Bills fans....and not made that info public...you have to wonder what else they are hiding/lying about?

Godfrey and Rogers and MLSE wouldn't lie to/mislead us.....would they? :devil:
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ravi Ramkissoonsingh » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:12 am

Oh no, Ted Rogers, who laughed in the faces of all Ontario taxpayers at the Bills in Toronto introductory press conference, would never lie to us. Godfrey and MLSE on the other hand ...
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ron » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:26 pm

ArgoDave wrote:
Ron wrote: Seriously. Did anyone really think Argo fans would (or should) get ahead of Bills fans in the ticket line??????

From what I've read all along it sure sounded like Argo ST holders WOULD get first dibs on seats. That has been the central theme of their whole ad campaign.

Explain this then:
Argos homepage wrote:Toronto – Following today’s announcement from Buffalo Bills Toronto Series organizers that demand from football fans registered for the chance to purchase tickets to the upcoming NFL Bills games in Toronto has now exceeded the 100,000 ticket mark, the Toronto Argonauts Football Club would like to remind fans that new and renewed 2008 Toronto Argonauts season ticket holders will receive guaranteed and priority access to 20,000 Bills’ tickets.

As an added value for Argos subscribers, season ticket holders are able to opt in to secure seats to the Bills games and will have first choice of the best available seats, ahead of the general public. Members of the public will enter an on-line registration. A random draw will be used to determine which football fans will have the opportunity to purchase tickets. Argos season ticket holders can avoid the lottery and get the complete Toronto football experience – the Argos AND the Bills.

The window for Argos season ticket holders to secure seats to the Bills in Toronto closes on April 24.
Sure reads to me like GCG should have been able to get the seats he wants (PRIORITY ACCESS....FIRST CHOICE), and not the nosebleeds he'll probably get stuck with.

So then...if they've reserved whole blocks of the best seats for Bills fans....and not made that info public...you have to wonder what else they are hiding/lying about?

Godfrey and Rogers and MLSE wouldn't lie to/mislead us.....would they? :devil:
You still blame Godfrey and MLSE when it was the Argos who were doing the misleading? Or is it that comprehension is severely lacking on the issue and neither the Argos or MLSE are misleading anyone?

The Argos say ...

Argos season ticket holders get first dibs on "The best available seats before the general public." You bolded it so you must have read it. Too bad you didn't understand it. Do you see any mention of BILLS season seat holder access? (To their team)

Of course not. With a little unbiased comprehension the Argos claim reads "Argos season ticket holders get the best available seats AFTER the Bills season seat holders get their allotment."

It was the Argos mistake for assuming it didn't have to be spelled out. :wink:
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:26 am

Ron wrote: You still blame Godfrey and MLSE when it was the Argos who were doing the misleading? Or is it that comprehension is severely lacking on the issue and neither the Argos or MLSE are misleading anyone?

The Argos say ...

Argos season ticket holders get first dibs on "The best available seats before the general public." You bolded it so you must have read it. Too bad you didn't understand it. Do you see any mention of BILLS season seat holder access? (To their team)

Of course not. With a little unbiased comprehension the Argos claim reads "Argos season ticket holders get the best available seats AFTER the Bills season seat holders get their allotment."

It was the Argos mistake for assuming it didn't have to be spelled out. :wink:
It was spelled right out in plain text. no special comprehension should be needed, it was a misleading ad. There is no doubt about it, it was intentional. The question is, who caused it to happen?

Did the Argos willingly LIE to their ST holders? Perhaps.

OR perhaps the Argos were told one thing for their ad campaign when this was all being set up and then told another when it was too late to withdraw or change the ads to more truthful ones without losing face and credibility.

Either way this smacks of deception and I'm much more inclined to think this typical of the way MLSE and Rogers do business than the Argos. The Argos cannot afford to lose credibility with their fans, MLSE and Rogers treat their fans with contempt, that's well known.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ron » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:38 am

ArgoDave wrote:
Ron wrote: You still blame Godfrey and MLSE when it was the Argos who were doing the misleading? Or is it that comprehension is severely lacking on the issue and neither the Argos or MLSE are misleading anyone?

The Argos say ...

Argos season ticket holders get first dibs on "The best available seats before the general public." You bolded it so you must have read it. Too bad you didn't understand it. Do you see any mention of BILLS season seat holder access? (To their team)

Of course not. With a little unbiased comprehension the Argos claim reads "Argos season ticket holders get the best available seats AFTER the Bills season seat holders get their allotment."

It was the Argos mistake for assuming it didn't have to be spelled out. :wink:
It was spelled right out in plain text. no special comprehension should be needed, it was a misleading ad. There is no doubt about it, it was intentional. The question is, who caused it to happen?

Did the Argos willingly LIE to their ST holders? Perhaps.

OR perhaps the Argos were told one thing for their ad campaign when this was all being set up and then told another when it was too late to withdraw or change the ads to more truthful ones without losing face and credibility.

Either way this smacks of deception and I'm much more inclined to think this typical of the way MLSE and Rogers do business than the Argos. The Argos cannot afford to lose credibility with their fans, MLSE and Rogers treat their fans with contempt, that's well known.
The Argos never said we had FIRST choice of all the seats.

Even in the letter sent to season seat holders dated February 25th it is very crystal clear.

1. Offer you access to Buffalo Bills tickets in Toronto seating ahead OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC

2. grant you first choice of AVAILABLE SEATING

They even disclaim: ALL seating and priority access is subject to availability.

They guarantee access but not specific seating!

It was always wishful thinking (at best) with zero basis in fact when any Argo fan thought they had first choice of seats ahead of everyone ... including and especially Bills season seat holders. (People really thought Argo fans got ahead of Bills ticket holders for a Bills NFL game? Seriously? Really? Come ON!)

I repeat. The Argos never said we had FIRST choice of all the seats.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:22 pm

Ron wrote: The Argos never said we had FIRST choice of all the seats.
This is what it says in the banner ad on the team site: "Get First Choice of the Best Buffalo Bills Seats"....it doesn't say "Get First Choice of the Best of What's Left" as that wouldn't be as good an Ad campaign, right? That entire line is dishonest.

To me saying BEST means ALL the Prime seats like GCG has.

To me that contradicts everything you posted below, ergo the Ads are misleading. I'd just like to know who was responsible for that. Did the Argos do it Knowingly or did the Cabal bringing the Bills here allow the Argos to initially Advertise one thing then tell them "Hey Guys, this is how it's really gonna be" once the Ads started and it was too late for the Argos to back out. I'd believe Ted would do that.
Ron wrote:
Even in the letter sent to season seat holders dated February 25th it is very crystal clear.

1. Offer you access to Buffalo Bills tickets in Toronto seating ahead OF THE GENERAL PUBLIC
That should include US Bills fans, but they don't say that, they only imply it.
Ron wrote:2. grant you first choice of AVAILABLE SEATING
First Choice should be just that, all available seats. They should have clearly stated that blocks of the best were being set aside. They did not. What is the point of saying Priority Access if they are in line behind others? It is a complete contradiction and only an Apologist/Spin Doctor could read it any other way.
Ron wrote:They even disclaim: ALL seating and priority access is subject to availability.

They guarantee access but not specific seating!
That completely contradicts everything we've heard right from the start on the Argos own site. The hard sell has always been 'Buy Argos ST's and get First Choice of the Best Bills seats. Just the LURE Toronto Bills fans would need to buy Argos tix.
Ron wrote: It was always wishful thinking (at best) with zero basis in fact when any Argo fan thought they had first choice of seats ahead of everyone ... including and especially Bills season seat holders. (People really thought Argo fans got ahead of Bills ticket holders for a Bills NFL game? Seriously? Really? Come ON!)

I repeat. The Argos never said we had FIRST choice of all the seats.
Tell me what the Banner on the top of this page says: http://www.argonauts.on.ca/

Yes, they did say it or at the very least implied it pretty heavily, which is misleading if they had no intention of delivering on it. If you walk into a Car dealership expecting to get a certain deal on a specific car then have them throw the old 'subject to availability' line at you to get you to accept some crap that 's Dealer Stock would you not feel Misled? Or would you berate yourself for 'wishful thinking (at best) with zero basis in fact''? Get real. You'd probably walk out in anger, rightfully so. GCG has the right to be angry.
Last edited by ArgoDave on Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ron » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:57 pm

Your right.

I admit I never saw that banner ad.

Yup. That is misleading. (Bait and switch as they say)

And interestingly enough when you click that add it goes to the "Best available" info we got in the season seat holder letter. But even that has one part where it says "And that means you get the best seats." That's a blatant fallacy.

And it's 100% the Argos fault. Any "lying" is being done solely by them. (not rogers, Bills or mlse)
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by greycupgarry » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:17 am

I never went by any of the ad campaigns. It was an assumption on my part. As a long time ST holder I assumed that I would get my seats. Not that I care or would even go. Although I thought I might go to the first regular season game at Argodome for the historical aspect. But my assumption was no different than expecting my seats for a play-off or Grey Cup game. Claiming that Argo ST holders would not have to go into the lottery would make me believe that some guy from Bay Street would not be sitting in my prime seats while I'm stuck with some seat obstructed with a banner ad for cable or cell phones.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ron » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:36 am

Right gcg. Not anyone from bay street. That guy would be from Main and Filmore.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:11 pm

Ron wrote:And it's 100% the Argos fault. Any "lying" is being done solely by them. (not rogers, Bills or mlse)
Well, we don't know what kind of backroom negotiations were held, but certainly the Argos will get the blame in the media and the general public. I personally believe they got burned by Ted and Co., told one thing then left holding the bag when the truth was revealed to them when it was too late to back out. (which they will never admit publically) They take the fall while reaping at least some bonus cash from the whole deal. While RW, Rogers and MLSE laughs all the way to the bank. With their reputations it's not a farfetched idea that they would dirty deal the Argos. Which is why I don't believe it when anyone thinks they would peacefully co-exist or even help the Argos should the Bills ever actually move here.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by bluto » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:21 pm

A parable of adapting in business:


In the 50's an automotive repair chain rode the trend of rusting mufflers and built itself into a north american empire with an internationally known brand. The individual franchisees made small fortunes based on the cheap labor and materials and the fact that most auto manufacturers were not yet using stainless steel for their exhausts. Such were these garage's successes that many of the franchise owners were able to buy several locations. These glory days of easy money lasted for over 20 years.
By the time the 1980's came, the glory days were over. The industry now had too much competition lured into their trade by the promise of the big money from the heyday which resulted in prices dropping per job. Automobile manufacturers and even aftermarket suppliers were now using much better materials that lasted much longer which therefore decreased demand for the service. As well, general repair shops had branched into mufflers and had stolen marketshare.
Many owners sold their businesses and got out when they sensed that things had changed and would never be the same. Many othes felt that it was just a market correction and if they could just survive a few lean years then many of the smaller competitiors without their national brand would disappear, then the glory days would be back. Some tried to organize a group to make each industry respect each other's "turf" so that brake shops or body shops wouldn't poach away their muffler jobs. Many others lost their businesses when they couldn't adapt to the new realities of their industry.
It was the Mufflers Installation Dealers Association that realized that change had come to them and it was incumbent upon them to adapt or die since no amount of wishing that things would be like they were in the late 60's would make it so. They decided to make a fundamental shift in the way they did business.
MIDAS Mufflers realized that the public would always know that they were the exhaust specialists, but they needed to court other segments of the industry such as brakes, tune ups and lube servicesto return their shops to profitability. They also had a big head start on these other shops since they had over 1000 locations to make advertising and purchasing deals that the smaller shops and chains would never get.
MIDAS then made the final choice to drop the "mufflers" from their name and become the "Auto Service Experts". They now have 1400 locations and are the worlds largest auto service chain and grossed $200M in 2005.


Deal with change...or it will deal with you.
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