Argos - Bills protest video-or tee shirt sale? (Bills in TO)

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ron » Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:33 pm

ArgoDave wrote:
Ron wrote:And it's 100% the Argos fault. Any "lying" is being done solely by them. (not rogers, Bills or mlse)
Well, we don't know what kind of backroom negotiations were held, but certainly the Argos will get the blame in the media and the general public. I personally believe they got burned by Ted and Co., told one thing then left holding the bag when the truth was revealed to them when it was too late to back out. (which they will never admit publically) They take the fall while reaping at least some bonus cash from the whole deal. While RW, Rogers and MLSE laughs all the way to the bank. With their reputations it's not a farfetched idea that they would dirty deal the Argos. Which is why I don't believe it when anyone thinks they would peacefully co-exist or even help the Argos should the Bills ever actually move here.
That's because you have a heavy bias against the NFL people and mlse, rogers.

Let me ask you this

1. Do you think that C&S are stupid, amateur businessmen? Do you think for one minute that they had wool pulled over their eyes? Do you really think this whole deal was done with a handshake and not looked at by lawyers?

2. The majority of all the info the Argos sent out was accurate. (Look at your season ticket holder letter about the NFL games) Are you saying that MLSE forced them to write a misleading banner ad on the Argos own official web site?

3. Are you also saying that MLSE forced the Argos to severely jack up season ticket prices so a new person wanting to buy a season ticket in my current section for only the CFL games has to pay almost 150% more than in 2007?? (I had friends who were interested by said FU to the new prices. They told the Argos they didn't want NFL tickets but those were the new prices)

Sorry AD. You can hate mlse and rogers all you like. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the Argos giving it up the ass to their fans all by themselves!
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by smokey » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:27 am

To the TO Argo fans from someone not from Ont & I couldn't care less about the NFL - [b]wake up!! [/b]The Argo owners are the ones who are to blame for any misleading info & the season ticket increases. And as others on this site have stated - they would have had their lawyers go over the contracts with a fine tooth comb. They are business men & they are out to make a buck or two & this time unfortunately they are making the money at your expense.

We CFL fans thought that the Argo owners were "special" people who know what the CFL means to us & would also support it. Perhaps we were wrong!

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by mackdknife » Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:17 pm

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Re: Introduce Yourselves!
by mackdknife on Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:28 pm


Hey all you lunatic CFLers, Mackdknife here. Mackdwife and I are HUGE DBL Blue fans and CFL Loonies too... It's very amusing to read some of the humorous and heartfelt posts, some give me the chills.
We have a beautiful game and some awesome defenders of it!
I am doing some research for a proposed CFL TV program and I would appreciate hearing from you guys and gals about things you would like to see in a CFL TV program. What makes our game spacial? How can we make young football fans and sports fans in general sit up and take notice of our league? We need wake up the national identity and boast 3 down ball without knocking our neighbours.
This is a very real plan, and we could all play a vital role in , not only in our league's survival but in it's ability to flourish in a market that demands exciting cool brave new ideas and concepts!

Thanks in advance...
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:29 pm

bluto wrote:Deal with change...or it will deal with you.
Ah, but a huge Foreign company didn't come in to their turf, set up a similar product offering but much heavier hyped product while the local media told everyone that the Foreign product was way better than the Canadian one, and that it was time for the Canadian one to die or 'go away' so we can have the 'World Class' product because after all we deserve it eh?

If that had happened I doubt MIDAS would have survived.

Much like how Wal-Mart killed off small stores with their 'big name' and cheap crap made in China. Service is poor, pay is low, product is crap. But everyone shops there because after all if it came from the US it has to be better, right? No one thinks of the long term consequences. And saving money is much more important than saving Canadian jobs......or a venerable Canadian institution that cannot hope to compete with the big budget, big hyped NFL. :juggle:

The US doesn't worry about protecting their leagues because they don't have to....we do. We cannot compete, there is NO level playing field between the CFL and the NFL, unlike your Muffler shops which all basically sold the same products and services and MIDAS simply did it better and smarter. The NFL IS better and smarter than the CFL, so how can anyone think the CFL will survive going head to head with them in an already pro-US market like TO? Please explain that to me.

What is that aphorism about getting into bed with an elephant? That would be what the Argos would be doing should the NFL relocate here permanently.

To return to your excellent MIDAS example they did their best to kill off their competition, like any smart business would do. A Monopoly is far easier to survive in then fair competition. MLSE wants a Monopoly on as much of TO sports as they can get. If they get a football team they will not tolerate the CFL any more than they would tolerate another NHL team in Hamilton or Kitchener.

Prove me wrong.
Last edited by ArgoDave on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:11 pm

Ron wrote: That's because you have a heavy bias against the NFL people and mlse, rogers.
And you have a bias against the Argos every time they raise ticket prices. It's one of your favourite rants. :wink: You've been mad at them ever since they messed up your GC seats.
Ron wrote: Do you think that C&S are stupid, amateur businessmen? Do you think for one minute that they had wool pulled over their eyes? Do you really think this whole deal was done with a handshake and not looked at by lawyers?
Nope, I'm quite sure C+S didn't get wealthy by being stupid, but sports isn't the field they got rich in, whereas Rogers and MLSE have a vastly greater experience in screwing over paying customers in that field. Without seeing the exact contract wordage I cannot say what was in the deal, neither can you, but I give the small benefit of the doubt to C+S. Their track record since owning the Argos hasn't shown the same "F*** You" attitude that Rogers and MLSE regularly display to paying customers, especially MLSE who jack up ticket prices every year even tho no team they run has ever or will ever have a serious sniff at a Championship since winning trophies isn't what they want to do, maximizing profit by lying to the lemmings that support their teams is their modus operandi.
Ron wrote:
2. The majority of all the info the Argos sent out was accurate. (Look at your season ticket holder letter about the NFL games) Are you saying that MLSE forced them to write a misleading banner ad on the Argos own official web site?
These things would all have been prepared long before public display. I'm saying perhaps that the Argo brass had things changed on them via vague contract language, then told "shut up and play along or you won't get as much money as you expect" and "our Lawyers can beat up your Lawyers". In their shoes would you go public and admit the deal wasn't as good as advertised, that you were duped, or just go along with it and hope the lemmings pay up as expected if they swallow the hype? PT Barnum was right, you know. Greed can blind even smart people. This was a chance for a big cash grab.
Ron wrote: Are you also saying that MLSE forced the Argos to severely jack up season ticket prices so a new person wanting to buy a season ticket in my current section for only the CFL games has to pay almost 150% more than in 2007?? (I had friends who were interested by said FU to the new prices. They told the Argos they didn't want NFL tickets but those were the new prices)
Nope, I've said all along this was a CASH GRAB by all involved and not any sure sign that the NFL was coming here permanently, despite what some like to troll by talking about avalanches and all that nonsense. :tease: Now that is an error by the Argos IMO, there should have been a lower price disqualifying anyone for NFL seats. I agree with you there. It will backfire on them, but like I said greed can blind even smart people.
Ron wrote:
Sorry AD. You can hate mlse and rogers all you like. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the Argos giving it up the ass to their fans all by themselves!
When it comes to "giving it up the ass to their fans" no one can top MLSE, ask any Leafs fan about that. Craptors and FC fans are gonna learn the hard way that getting fleeced for an continually "inferior/barely good enough/flirting with greatness but never taking that final step" product will be their entire existence as a fan of those teams. Argo fans, by comparison, have less to complain about. Which is why I never liked this Bills deal in any way really, I didn't want that kind of attitude rubbing off on the Argo owners, but I bet it has. Consorting with the likes of Tannenbaum, Rogers and Godfrey would corrupt anyone. :devil:
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by bluto » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:15 pm

They're coming Dave. There's no holding back the tide. There's no wishing it away.

The CFL can lay the groundwork for a new relationship now, or they can wish later that they had. Then if the CFL does get killed off because it lacked forsight and adaptability the chicken-littles of today will be proud to crow about how they told us so.

i say again: deal with change, or it will deal with you.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by cossack » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:42 pm

I refuse to be a NFL surrender monkey. I also refuse to negotiate away the CFL I know. I will continue to support this league until one of us is no longer around.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by bluto » Fri Apr 25, 2008 6:31 am

cossack wrote:I refuse to be a NFL surrender monkey. I also refuse to negotiate away the CFL I know. I will continue to support this league until one of us is no longer around.
How brave a stand you take...
Stoically risking other people's businesses...
Stalwartly allowing a grand tradition and its fans to endure hardship rather than modify the current way the CFL does business.

The tact you are on now will ensure that you become the "surrender monkey" you so boldly refuse to be.
They can sell me a flag but i can't wave it on a stick?

There must've been a lot of flag-on-flag violence incidents in the Rogers Centre...

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:49 am

bluto wrote:They're coming Dave. There's no holding back the tide. There's no wishing it away.

The CFL can lay the groundwork for a new relationship now, or they can wish later that they had. Then if the CFL does get killed off because it lacked forsight and adaptability the chicken-littles of today will be proud to crow about how they told us so.

i say again: deal with change, or it will deal with you.
I disagree. If the NFL had ever wanted to be here they would have done so already. How long has Godfrey been on his quest to turn Canada into the US? 20 years? Longer? How long has he had a Stadium and the 'money men' ready to pounce? Remember, I've been reading this NFL-to-TO crap longer than you have. Our biggest threat to them coming here was the TO Olympics granting them a Stadium funded by the Taxpayers that would be suitable for the NFL. The Dome is old, too small and would take Millions to renovate it probably ruining at least one season of baseball with construction work that would take months. Rogers may be greedy but he ain't stupid, you think he's gonna hurt his Jays just to give Tannenbaum a place to play? Maybe if MLSE pays for it...

There is no real advantage to them being here, the Canadian market is peanuts to them, it just helps the Bills with ticket sales, and perhaps a few other teams in general merchandise sales. This is a Cash Grab for the Bills to help them STAY in Buffalo, they've said it over and over. Only the TO NFL Worshipers are saying this is a 'first step' to the NFL coming here. Show me any real authentic US source saying that the NFL is coming here for sure...and not just speculation please, a quote from the NFL Commish would be sufficient, or Ralph Wilson himself. After all, they are the only opinions that matter. What you or I want is irrelevant. The Bills go to the Highest Bidder when RW dies, and there is no guarantee at all that the Rogers cabal will be the highest bider, only some people wishing they will be.

And like I've said before, you are completely ignoring the very real aspect of Patriotism in the US. Americans would freak if a team was stolen from them by foreigners, it just isn't their way. And it's not like we've never seen Protectionist Legislation form the US before eh?

The NFL coming to TO would kill the Argos, you can pretend otherwise but we both know TO ain't really a football town and all the Wannabees would drop the Argos like a hot potato and support the NFL no matter how pricey it is or how bad they play, it's the TO way to support high priced over-hyped losers, especially from a US league.
Go ahead, prove that statement wrong.

You think the Argos would survive with 10-15,000 hardcore ST holders like us? How long before C+S bail then? The only 'groundwork' I can see helping the Argos is direct financial compensation to make up for lost fans or if the NFL team owns them as well and runs them as a farm team giving them motivation to keep them afloat. No other scenario is feasible to me, and to many across Canada too I'd bet.

Better for all if they just stay away.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:58 am

bluto wrote: Stalwartly allowing a grand tradition and its fans to endure hardship rather than modify the current way the CFL does business.
You run a business Ry, explain to us uninformed worker drones exactly how YOU would modify the CFL business to survive direct head to head competition with the NFL, especially in Ontario where the franchises have had periods of poor support in recent memory. I'd really like to know how you think it could work. It's easy to say it could be done, tell us how. Prove to us this isn't just wishful thinking on your part because you want the NFL and the CFL in TO so you can have your cake and eat it too, since you can afford both I assume.

Somehow I think relying on the CFL BoG to effect change is naive at best given their track record. Look at how long it took them to enact a workable Salary Management System?
Last edited by ArgoDave on Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Solar Max » Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:00 am

bluto wrote:
cossack wrote:I refuse to be a NFL surrender monkey. I also refuse to negotiate away the CFL I know. I will continue to support this league until one of us is no longer around.
How brave a stand you take...
Stoically risking other people's businesses...
Stalwartly allowing a grand tradition and its fans to endure hardship rather than modify the current way the CFL does business.

The tact you are on now will ensure that you become the "surrender monkey" you so boldly refuse to be.
I disagree. Go quietly into the night, with not a bang, but instead a whimper? That won't cut it with most of the CFL fans here.

I respect your NFL aspirations, bluto, regardless of what that means for the CFL. Regardless, I think you will find that cossack's view is actually the one that the majority of us share.

And the Bills will enjoy the weather in LA as you think of what might have been.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Tighthead » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:01 pm

ArgoDave wrote: Show me any real authentic US source saying that the NFL is coming here for sure...and not just speculation please, a quote from the NFL Commish would be sufficient, or Ralph Wilson himself. After all, they are the only opinions that matter. What you or I want is irrelevant. The Bills go to the Highest Bidder when RW dies, and there is no guarantee at all that the Rogers cabal will be the highest bider, only some people wishing they will be.
Would Wilson or Goodell state that if it were the case? Of course not. Their opinions matter, but that doesn't mean they will voice them. Wilson won't move the team, but he is into overtime on the actuarial tables. No commissioner is going to state that a team is slated for a move unless it is absolutely imminent. The fact that no one will state that it is coming for sure doesn't mean it isn't a possibility.

Highest bidder subject to NFL approval, correct? Or are you suggesting that Wilson's death will have somehow negative the franchise agreement?

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by ArgoDave » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:34 pm

Tighthead wrote:
ArgoDave wrote: Show me any real authentic US source saying that the NFL is coming here for sure...and not just speculation please, a quote from the NFL Commish would be sufficient, or Ralph Wilson himself. After all, they are the only opinions that matter. What you or I want is irrelevant. The Bills go to the Highest Bidder when RW dies, and there is no guarantee at all that the Rogers cabal will be the highest bider, only some people wishing they will be.
Would Wilson or Goodell state that if it were the case? Of course not. Their opinions matter, but that doesn't mean they will voice them. Wilson won't move the team, but he is into overtime on the actuarial tables. No commissioner is going to state that a team is slated for a move unless it is absolutely imminent. The fact that no one will state that it is coming for sure doesn't mean it isn't a possibility.
Ah, but we are NOT discussing possibilities here, we are discussing what at least 2 guys here are saying, that is that the Bills or another NFL coming here is a CERTAINTY and that's there's nothing to be done about it. But they are offering no proof whatsoever, just their own ideas and opinions while jumping on any dissenting opinions with derogatory comments like "dinosaurs", "leftist tripe", "class warriors", "pathetic...sheep", "ostrich", "frightened and bush-league". Basically ramming their opinions down our throats and getting mad at us because we don't like the taste.

I disagree, since nothing I have read from any source that matters (ie no CDN NFL-Worshiper Media sources who love to push their speculations and wishful thinking as 'fact') says anything of the sort. In fact, both Goodell and Wilson have gone out of there way to emphasize this is only a 5 Year Deal to help boost Canadian Bills ticket sales......period. RW needs cash to keep the Bills in NY. Who knows, if RW is still alive they may do it again for another 5 years if it proves to be successful, and I have no problems with that. If these people want to spend their money on an inferior NFL team let them.
Tighthead wrote:Highest bidder subject to NFL approval, correct? Or are you suggesting that Wilson's death will have somehow negative the franchise agreement?
That's right, highest bidder, I've never suggested otherwise. BUT the same guys who say the NFL is inevitable also push the idea that the Canadian cabal seeking the Bills will automatically have the highest bid, as if no other rich US guy could outbid them. Once again that's more wishful thinking on their part with no proofs offered or no real basis in fact. What IS a fact is there's a LOT more rich guys in the USA who could outspend our guys any day of the week, and cities who badly want the NFL in town. Who will offer incentives that TO cannot or will not match. NFL teams don't often come up for sale do they? It's a very exclusive club for very rich guys, Green Bay excluded of course.
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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Tighthead » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:50 pm

Subject to NFL approval is the key.

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Re: Argos - Bills protest video - or tee shirt sale?

Post by Ravi Ramkissoonsingh » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:59 pm

Apparently, Rogers is paying the Bills $78 million for the "privilege" of having them play in Toronto: http://www.torontosun.com/Sports/Footba ... 23666.html
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