MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

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OldFortYork
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Post by OldFortYork » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:23 pm

argotom wrote:The league is bleeding big time and cannot last too much longer.
Just like the NLL last week who gave its players an ultimatum and when the players would not agree, it closed down and possibly for good.
As for the MLS, how can a league with an alleged per game average of 15,000 last and especially since it is widely believed how possibly as many as 5000 of these tickets are freebies.
I stand by my prediciton of 2-3 years.
The NASL was drawing much better in the early 80's when it went under.
The MLS is a very different league from the NASL, it's like apples and oranges.

First off, for a sports league, its extremely fiscally responsible. The single entity structure has allowed teams to introduce the Designated Player rule and sign high quality players like David Beckham, Juan Pablo Angel and Cuauhtemoc Blanco. The league negotiates the salaries of players, and revenues are shared between teams, so that means that expenses are tightly controlled. Most of the teams have moved into their own Soccer Specific Stadiums where they control the various revenue streams such as parking and concessions. They don't have to pay exuberant rental fees for NFL sized stadiums that they can only fill 1/3 of the way. Teams this year have introduced jersey sponsorships which at a minimum are multi-million dollar multi-year deals. Soccer nowadays is a worldly sport, that's why in a multicultural city such as Toronto, Toronto FC has been a huge success.

Judging from the season ticket sales and renewals, this team will be just as successful, if not more in terms of attendance next year.

And for the record, you stated that the MLS has no TV deal. Well actually it does with ESPN.

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Post by argotom » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:15 pm

OFY there is no doubt how the TFC is the jewel in the league and is a pleasant surprise to most Torontonians.
My one game experience was positive, but I did notice a somewhat lack of youth attending.

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Post by Inquiring Mind » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:02 pm

OldFortYork wrote:
And for the record, you stated that the MLS has no TV deal. Well actually it does with ESPN.
They actually have several TV deals, the league as a whole has deals with HDnet, Fox Soccer Channel, Univision as well as ESPN as mentioned... beyond that the teams are responsible for making sure any game not covered nationally is televised locally/regionally.
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Post by 120dB » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:52 pm

wHAT'S THE HOLDUP WITH vANCOUVER'S NEW sTADIUM? i KNOW bOB lANARDUZZI WOULD LIKE TO COMPLETE A sTADIUM DEAL SO vANCOUVER COULD ENTER THE mls BY 2011, but all I hear is griping from the City...

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Post by greycupgarry » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:47 pm

120dB wrote:wHAT'S THE HOLDUP WITH vANCOUVER'S NEW sTADIUM? i KNOW bOB lANARDUZZI WOULD LIKE TO COMPLETE A sTADIUM DEAL SO vANCOUVER COULD ENTER THE mls BY 2011, but all I hear is griping from the City...
A few more exclamation marks and you too could be selling CFL Swag!!!!!!
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:38 pm

Figured I'd bump with and keep everyone updated with argotoms TFC/MLS death watch... with TFC making a profit and generating more revenue then anyone in the CFL... and the MLS, with increasing numbers of teams in the black and expecting to expand.

Yep, knocking on deaths door if I ever saw a case :lol:
argotom wrote:I give them and the league 2-3 years max before it folds.
15-27 months lefts.... tick, tock, tick, tock :tease:
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by MulderS » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:02 pm

TV numbers not so good though

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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:14 pm

MulderS wrote:TV numbers not so good though
Compared to what? The CFL? Well no *poop*... an estabilished league with decades of history and teams across the country. The Jays? A team with decades of history. The NHL?

Expecting miracles from a league with one team in the entire country, in it's second season? At the pro level soccer is still little more than a niche sport.

They generate more revenue than any team in the CFL and turn a profit, so they can obviously get by
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Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Ravi Ramkissoonsingh » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:20 pm

I wonder how the anti-Argos protest went at the MLS all-star game tonight.
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by HammerMan » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:07 am

Ravi Ramkissoonsingh wrote:I wonder how the anti-Argos protest went at the MLS all-star game tonight.
TSN.ca: DE ROSARIO LIFTS MLS ALL-STARS PAST WEST HAM UNITED
The Canadian Press wrote:A good portion of fans in the end zone came clad in black T-shirts as a protest the possible expansion of the field to accommodate the Toronto Argonauts. ...MLS commissioner Don Garber said Wednesday he agreed with the fans, saying the league's goal was to have every team in a soccer-specific stadium, but added he hoped they wouldn't turn out wearing black.
and the "beautiful" game rolls on in TO... i prefer the "exciting" game of football.
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by BigRedMachine » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:03 pm

Inquiring Mind wrote:
MulderS wrote:TV numbers not so good though
Compared to what? The CFL? Well no *poop*... an estabilished league with decades of history and teams across the country. The Jays? A team with decades of history. The NHL?

Expecting miracles from a league with one team in the entire country, in it's second season? At the pro level soccer is still little more than a niche sport.

They generate more revenue than any team in the CFL and turn a profit, so they can obviously get by
I'm not doubting this, but do you have a link to back this up? Does it include TV revenues? I have a hard time believing that the Riders, Esks or Lions don't generate more cash...
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:49 pm

BigRedMachine wrote:
Inquiring Mind wrote:
MulderS wrote:TV numbers not so good though
Compared to what? The CFL? Well no *poop*... an estabilished league with decades of history and teams across the country. The Jays? A team with decades of history. The NHL?

Expecting miracles from a league with one team in the entire country, in it's second season? At the pro level soccer is still little more than a niche sport.

They generate more revenue than any team in the CFL and turn a profit, so they can obviously get by
I'm not doubting this, but do you have a link to back this up? Does it include TV revenues? I have a hard time believing that the Riders, Esks or Lions don't generate more cash...
You don't doubt it... yet you don't believe it... mmm hmm :tease:

These are from the various teams financial statements (including TV revenue, since you asked)

The Esks have generated 13.9M last year, 13.0M in '06, 12.6M in '05, 11.4M in '04
Riders generated 22.9M last year, 15.4M in '06, 13.5M in '05, 11.1M in '04
Bombers 12.2M last year, 11.6M in '06, 9.4M in '05

Lions don't release theirs, so it's anyones guess what theres really is, but other than the Riders last seasons rather remarkable gain, revenues are generally in the mid-to-low teens... TFC doesn't release theirs either, but MLS has confirmed they are second only to L.A. in revenue, and were generally thought to have generated 20M last year, and expected to eclipse 25M this year. Just doing the quick math, they should be pulling in 12-15M in ticket revenue alone this year... beyond that, MLS claims that Toronto has the most sponsorship and concession revenues in the league, and is second in merchandise. FWIW, LA did 25M last year and is projected to do about 35M this year.

I have/had links to sources for all of the above, but as I compiled them many have expired or are now only viewable if you subscribe to the various papers/sites... feel free to google it if you're so inclined and I imagine you could confirm the above.
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Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Hollywood2 » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:05 pm

Like your stats indicate, TFC is 2nd in MLS, behind only an LA team with David Beckham. They are vastly above the league average.

IMO, if MLS over-expands they will hav ethe same problem as the NASL. What's wrong with having a second tier like like the USL for smaller teams on smaller budgets? Especially when they can beat MLS teams in their respective national championships!
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Rids » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:31 pm

I don't think the MLS will over expand for two reasons. First the price tag for expansion teams. The new Philly team paid $30 million to join this league. Secondly FIFA regulations have a limit of 20 teams for the top level soccer league. I do not see MLS working around this ruling and adding more teams without adding a second division.
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Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Hollywood2 » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:41 pm

Rids wrote:I don't think the MLS will over expand for two reasons. First the price tag for expansion teams. The new Philly team paid $30 million to join this league. Secondly FIFA regulations have a limit of 20 teams for the top level soccer league. I do not see MLS working around this ruling and adding more teams without adding a second division.
That's a funny regulation. I can see a country like England or Italy having 20 top teams. But not Belgium or Sweden. Then again, FIFA also frowns upon multi-national leagues.
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