MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Lacrosse, Soccer, Baseball, Basketball, Motorsports, Golf, Rugby, Amateur Sport, Curling, Wrestling ... Whatever Sport or Leisure activity you like!

Moderator: Referees

OldFortYork
Playground Hero
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:23 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Re:

Post by OldFortYork » Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:52 pm

MulderS wrote:Well The official city documents state -

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009 ... -23709.pdf
These amendments were proposed at the Board in order to make clear that nothing in the
proposed LOI respecting BMO Field would have an adverse effect upon the terms
currently permitting the expansion and use of the Soccer Stadium by the Toronto
Argonauts, and also to ensure that the City would have flexibility in respect of the future
use of Allan Lamport Stadium to allow it to be used for professional football. MLSE has
agreed to these amendments to the LOI and they are therefore included as
recommendations in this report.
Yes, there are provisions that would allow the Argos to play at BMO field. But, seriously, who's going to pay for the expansion of the stadium? We know that the current Argo's ownership don't have enough money. Even if the Argos were to be bought by David Braley, I doubt that he has the finances to pull out a $30 million retrofit of BMO field on his own.
just a thought, but what else are they gonna do with it if the MLS every goes belly up?
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...

Kanga-Kucha
Superstar
Posts: 1677
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 pm
Location: Georgia (Originally from Australia)
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:28 am

OldFortYork wrote:
MulderS wrote:Well The official city documents state -

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2009 ... -23709.pdf
These amendments were proposed at the Board in order to make clear that nothing in the
proposed LOI respecting BMO Field would have an adverse effect upon the terms
currently permitting the expansion and use of the Soccer Stadium by the Toronto
Argonauts, and also to ensure that the City would have flexibility in respect of the future
use of Allan Lamport Stadium to allow it to be used for professional football. MLSE has
agreed to these amendments to the LOI and they are therefore included as
recommendations in this report.
Yes, there are provisions that would allow the Argos to play at BMO field. But, seriously, who's going to pay for the expansion of the stadium? We know that the current Argo's ownership don't have enough money. Even if the Argos were to be bought by David Braley, I doubt that he has the finances to pull out a $30 million retrofit of BMO field on his own.
just a thought, but what else are they gonna do with it if the MLS every goes belly up?
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...

then what's all this doom stuff I hear? surly the 13thman.com posters aren;t just blowing hot air.
GO BOMBERS AND WINNIPEG JETS!!!
EPTC RKBC COA
Got EVS?

MulderS
Starter
Posts: 423
Joined: Wed May 30, 2007 10:54 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Re:

Post by MulderS » Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:47 pm

OldFortYork wrote:
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...
The thing about "sell-outs" Are becoming more like red seats.

I read TFC fan boards and at the start of this season i saw alot of complaining about empty seats. Renewal rate may by 95%, but that means 800 less seats.

You've also heard about the waiting list being at 10,000 people. But after 2-3 years do you really want the product?

Kanga-Kucha
Superstar
Posts: 1677
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 pm
Location: Georgia (Originally from Australia)
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:07 pm

MulderS wrote:
OldFortYork wrote:
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...
The thing about "sell-outs" Are becoming more like red seats.

I read TFC fan boards and at the start of this season i saw alot of complaining about empty seats. Renewal rate may by 95%, but that means 800 less seats.

You've also heard about the waiting list being at 10,000 people. But after 2-3 years do you really want the product?
That product being soccer that copaired to the world, is sub par.

NA has the best in Football (NFL/CFL), Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey (Russia/USSR agurabily have better players, but until 91, no one saw them as they didn't have a rival to the NHL, The KHL and European leagues are looking into changing that, but until then, NHL is the best.), but no matter what it can do, it can't get the best in Soccer over Europe. N.Americans want to watch the top product, and that's why leagues like MLS fail.
GO BOMBERS AND WINNIPEG JETS!!!
EPTC RKBC COA
Got EVS?

OldFortYork
Playground Hero
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:23 am
Location: Toronto

Re: Re:

Post by OldFortYork » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:10 am

Kanga-Kucha wrote:
MulderS wrote:
OldFortYork wrote:
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...
The thing about "sell-outs" Are becoming more like red seats.

I read TFC fan boards and at the start of this season i saw alot of complaining about empty seats. Renewal rate may by 95%, but that means 800 less seats.

You've also heard about the waiting list being at 10,000 people. But after 2-3 years do you really want the product?
That product being soccer that copaired to the world, is sub par.

NA has the best in Football (NFL/CFL), Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey (Russia/USSR agurabily have better players, but until 91, no one saw them as they didn't have a rival to the NHL, The KHL and European leagues are looking into changing that, but until then, NHL is the best.), but no matter what it can do, it can't get the best in Soccer over Europe. N.Americans want to watch the top product, and that's why leagues like MLS fail.
I can assure you, that the MLS is better than many of the European leagues. Might not be as good as the leagues in England, Germany, Spain, Italy or France, but definitely in the top 20 of the world.

Kanga-Kucha
Superstar
Posts: 1677
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:07 pm
Location: Georgia (Originally from Australia)
Contact:

Re: Re:

Post by Kanga-Kucha » Thu Dec 03, 2009 9:44 am

OldFortYork wrote:
Kanga-Kucha wrote:
MulderS wrote:
OldFortYork wrote:
I doubt that this will happen. The MLS is in a very healthy state financially, with the majority of the teams breaking even. I think that this year there were only a couple of teams in the red (New England, Kansas City).

BTW, The 2010 TFC season will be another sellout - 96% season seat renewal rate ...
The thing about "sell-outs" Are becoming more like red seats.

I read TFC fan boards and at the start of this season i saw alot of complaining about empty seats. Renewal rate may by 95%, but that means 800 less seats.

You've also heard about the waiting list being at 10,000 people. But after 2-3 years do you really want the product?
That product being soccer that copaired to the world, is sub par.

NA has the best in Football (NFL/CFL), Basketball, Baseball, and Hockey (Russia/USSR agurabily have better players, but until 91, no one saw them as they didn't have a rival to the NHL, The KHL and European leagues are looking into changing that, but until then, NHL is the best.), but no matter what it can do, it can't get the best in Soccer over Europe. N.Americans want to watch the top product, and that's why leagues like MLS fail.
I can assure you, that the MLS is better than many of the European leagues. Might not be as good as the leagues in England, Germany, Spain, Italy or France, but definitely in the top 20 of the world.
sure....

its better than the A league in Australia, I'll give it that, and that was a good league until it added more teams.
GO BOMBERS AND WINNIPEG JETS!!!
EPTC RKBC COA
Got EVS?

User avatar
Inquiring Mind
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6576
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Re:

Post by Inquiring Mind » Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:08 pm

argotom wrote:You are correct IM, I give them and the league 2-3 years max before it folds.
Your "3 years max" is fast approaching (just a tad over 4 months left now), and last I checked the MLS still seems to be going strong... actually will be adding a couple more Canadian markets after you figured they'd be long since dead.

Yet another astute observation of yours comes to fruition :rotf:
-

Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

argolio
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6768
Joined: Fri Sep 26, 2003 4:03 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: Re:

Post by argolio » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:36 pm

You're like an elephant IM. :lol:
My name is Argolio, and I approved this post.

menacetosobriety
Playground Scrub
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: Re:

Post by menacetosobriety » Fri Jun 11, 2010 8:03 pm

Inquiring Mind wrote:
argotom wrote:You are correct IM, I give them and the league 2-3 years max before it folds.
Your "3 years max" is fast approaching (just a tad over 4 months left now), and last I checked the MLS still seems to be going strong... actually will be adding a couple more Canadian markets after you figured they'd be long since dead.

Yet another astute observation of yours comes to fruition :rotf:
I think he's got something; although maybe three years was a little to quick!

Look at TFC attendance, it is in decline. Remember TFC fans calling for a stadium expansion? Where are they now?MLSE made a large investment to expand slightly & where did that leave them - they can't sell out!
The stadium is small to boot - they are lucky to get 18,000 at most games, what will happen next year & the year after???

And don't even get my started on television ratings. TFC had a game on sportsnet earlier this year that drew 25,000. That is the worst sports rating I've ever seen!
When will CBC give up on this dog?

User avatar
Inquiring Mind
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6576
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: Re:

Post by Inquiring Mind » Sat Jun 12, 2010 9:20 am

menacetosobriety wrote:
Inquiring Mind wrote:
argotom wrote:You are correct IM, I give them and the league 2-3 years max before it folds.
Your "3 years max" is fast approaching (just a tad over 4 months left now), and last I checked the MLS still seems to be going strong... actually will be adding a couple more Canadian markets after you figured they'd be long since dead.

Yet another astute observation of yours comes to fruition :rotf:
I think he's got something; although maybe three years was a little to quick!

Look at TFC attendance, it is in decline. Remember TFC fans calling for a stadium expansion? Where are they now?MLSE made a large investment to expand slightly & where did that leave them - they can't sell out!
The stadium is small to boot - they are lucky to get 18,000 at most games, what will happen next year & the year after???

And don't even get my started on television ratings. TFC had a game on sportsnet earlier this year that drew 25,000. That is the worst sports rating I've ever seen!
When will CBC give up on this dog?
Yes, lets look at their attendance... their regular season averages thus far have been"

2007 - 20,130
2008 - 20,241
2009 - 20,344

And thus far in 2010, it is, drumroll please.... 20,537

Kind of shoots your contentions all to hell huh? But why take five minutes to look up some actual facts when you can just make stuff up right?!

As per tv, they're just on cause it's cheap to produce, and give the CBC a chance to practice up their talent for their World Cup coverage. They're never going to draw the kind of ratings the CFL has... but the CFL has had 50 years with teams right across the country to develope a following... pro soccer in it's various incarnates have been around 30, but for the first 25 it was just a series of trainwrecks that for the most part were two steps back for every step forward. . It's only been the last 5 that the game has gotten any kind of footing at all, with the Whitecaps and Impact turning their organizations around and then Toronto FC setting up shop.

Beyond that, CFL fans might not want to think too hard about how much red ink has been spilled preparing the Argos financial statements the last 20 years
-

Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

menacetosobriety
Playground Scrub
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: Re:

Post by menacetosobriety » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:40 am

Someone is making stuff up here, but ain't me!

Isn't it convenient that MLSE can now produce a shareholders report and draw a nice graph for their shareholders showing them that TFC attendance is on the rise??? What about all those 'red seats' evertime you watch a broadcast? Judging by the reaction these 'red seats' receive on soccer message boards fans have noticed.
Also, did you the watch the Vancouver game, granted it was raining but the stadium was empty, oh hold on....this game didn't count as 'regular season' for the benefit of these numbers...how convenient once again...
My point is MLSE like many other large organizations does some creative number crunching to please shareholders; I don't believe these numbers can be taken at face value.
So much for your 'actual facts'

User avatar
Inquiring Mind
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6576
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Sat Jun 12, 2010 11:22 am

Even if you include the exhibition games they're still averaging 19,887... hardly the "lucky to get 18,000 at most games"... in fact that game against Vancouver was the only time attendance was below 18,000, and it's only been below 20K one other time.

As per all the empty seats around midfield, they've always had that for whatever reason. The Maple Leafs seem to have the same issue with prime seats sitting empty, but most everything around them sold... seems to be the way with hot tickets in Toronto, it's a status symbol to have them, but the holders have little interest in actually using them. Probably a lot of corporations and the like.

Again if you're worried about inflated attendance, you better not look to closely at that sad sack Argos... or the Eskimos for that matter, they were probably the worst offender last year, announcing 30K+ everynight even when there were obviously no where near that many there. But everyone inflates attendance, at least in TFC's case most of their tickets appear to be sold.

Other than years the Argos have hosted the Grey Cup, they haven't turned a profit on operations... and usually those losses have been well into the millions. TFC on the other hand it's not hard to see their revenues should easily exceed expenses... and MLSE has been bankrolling the recent expansion and improvements, and while they can't be accused of running winning teams, they certainly seem to know how to make money... unlike the Argos...
-

Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

User avatar
Inquiring Mind
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6576
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Sat Jun 12, 2010 1:32 pm

In fact after compiling a full spreadsheet on it, that game against Vancouver was the only game they're ever announced less than 18K. Which, like you said was in a downpour, and a nothing game too boot.

Speaking of the weather... I still question the logic of building that stadium on the lake like they did. I wasn't very old at the time, but even I recall the horrible weather the Jays/Argos suffered through at Exhibition Stadium, which is why everyone was so gungho to build the dome in the first place. I guess it was cause that was the only land they could get and had a gun to their heads with the WYC coming quickly... but man, I think they would have been a lot better off trying to find something inland.
-

Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

menacetosobriety
Playground Scrub
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2009 12:14 pm

Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by menacetosobriety » Sat Jun 12, 2010 7:50 pm

- We'll disagree on just how inflated attendance is. Fact is that not even four years in they're struggling to sell out their small stadium. Recall that just a couple of years ago MLSE was promoting a 14,000 person waiting list & fan message boards were calling for a large stadium expansion.
MLSE made a large capital expenditure to add a 2k in additional seats to the stadium. I would assume they did so with the expectation to sell out these seats. That hasn't happened, while things are not horrible all is not as rosy attendance wise as MLSE would have you think.

- You're right alot of teams inflate attendance; I'm sure the Argos may have from time to time over the years.
Not sure where the Edmonton comment came from, they play in the largest open air stadium in Canada (62,000 plus). They actually sold out in a day for the upcoming Grey Cup. Even with the usual 35-40k in the stands with the sheer size of the stadium there are going to be empty parts - maybe that is where your confusion is. Edmonton has the best attendance in the CFL.

- They're off to a good start but three years is too small of a sample size to judge if TFC will be successful. Remember when the Skydome was new & the jays had 50k every night? Things can obviously change.

I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that TFC has been successful however I think they have about 30,000 hardcore fans in Toronto and 20,000 go to the stadium (tv ratings back me up on this).
I think now that the novelty act has worn off it's the 5 years or so that will be telling with regards to how successful this franchise will be.

User avatar
Inquiring Mind
Hall of Famer
Posts: 6576
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Re: MLS & Toronto FC Cannot Survive

Post by Inquiring Mind » Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:35 pm

I don't doubt the novelty will wear off... a lot of it already has. But they have a solid base and according to the league have turned a profit in all three of their years (and are the only team that can claim that, in fact no other team has done it more than once in that time, though I suspect Seattle will be changing that)... on the other hand the Argos just drew 12.5K the other night, so you might want to worry about there house since you're so concerned with TFC's.

The Eskimos comment comes from my being a season ticket holder, and seeing it first hand... they've always inflated numbers, but last year is was horribly blatant. There were a couple crowds early in the season that there were only 20-25K there that they announced 30K for... but the coup de grace was the last game against Toronto, they also announced over 30K, but there were only maybe 10K there that night. Which is pretty damn empty in a stadium that size.
-

Look. We can go round and round about this all the live long day. Let's keep it simple. I embody amazement. Can you dig on that? Good. Then meet me on the corner of rock and roll, and bring a flask of something that burns.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest